During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Copy/pasting this from elsewhere, with a few other thoughts:
Regarding the Celestial Dragons, the entry either needs a drastic rewrite/trimming down to just the St. family, or be cut entirely. I don't think you can put an entire group of people as Complete Monsters when we've only really seen three in action, maybe four. Some of them have just been dicks, IIRC.
Regarding Shiliew, I'm not sure. He strikes me as more of a monster than Akainu, but he's had so little screentime that he's effectively in the same position — looks bad, could change with further developments. Associating with Blackbeard is a bad mark against him, I would think, given that thus far the only member of that crew we've seen with any redeeming features is Blackbeard himself. I'm inclined to keep him, but I'd like to know exactly why he snapped before being jailed in Impel Down before making a final call. It's always possible they, I dunno, mocked his dead wife or something. But, as I said, I'm leaning towards keep.
Regarding Caesar, the man's a monster. The only criteria he might fail is if we end up deciding the work doesn't take him seriously. I'd argue the series takes his actions seriously, but has a bit of trouble taking him seriously. The man is petty as all get out, and that's part of what makes his actions so terrible, but it also makes him look really, really stupid.
Also, on looking over the Akainu entry we really should probably remove the part about there being no evidence the Oharans were a danger. Robin actually did find the information that Crocodile was looking for, she just lied about it. And she's been at the center of two different plots to find/build Pluton. Not saying that justifies the killing of the Oharans, but events have borne out the danger of knowing how to read Poneglyphs even if one's intentions are completely benign.
If everyone else absolutely feels that line must be kept, it should at least be edited to clarify that there was no evidence at the time. Other than that, I have no issues with the entry as it stands.
edited 3rd Apr '14 2:15:59 PM by CorrTerek
Technically no, but I think Corr is absolutely correct. We should limit it to Charloss's family as some Celestial dragons aren't bad guys. The entry needs a heavy rework. Also, Donquixote Doflamingo is a Celestial Dragon himself, but he just misses qualifying for now. Charloss is pretty easily the worst with his family. Saint Jalmack was no prize, given how he tried to blow up a child.
Shiliew...well, I should clarify for the uninitiated. One Piece's World Government uses a prison known as Impel Down to house the world's worst criminals. Impel Down is an especially brutal place with incredibly nasty conditions. The Warden of the prison is named Magellan and he views the prison as his pride and joy, while staking his life on its reputation. He's not really evil, just an antagonist.
His former assistant warden, Shiliew, became an inmate of the prison after he went on a rampage to slaughter helpless prisoners- dozens, maybe hundreds of them (One Piece's world has a higher incarceration rate than the US I think). When caught by Magellan, Shiliew sneers they're just trash and tries to kill him as well, being defeated and imprisoned.
When there's a jailbreak in Impel Down, a desperate Magellan has Shiliew released with promises of clemency if he'll assist in suppressing it. Shiliew promptly disposes of the men freeing him and joins of the jailbreakers, Blackbeard. however, he shows no loyalty towards him and after assisting the Blackbeard pirates in disposing of Whitebeard, he openly questions betraying Blackbeard or deserting him should his plan fail.
Shiliew hasn't had much screentime, but he's a nasty piece of work and set as Blackbeard's Dragon who followed Blackbeard's plans to destabilize the world practically. Basically, he's an Ax-Crazy murderer. My main hesitation is the heinous standard, but not even his boss has gone off to slaughter so many people for fun.
Caesar was one we voted to keep pretty unanimously after Punk Hazard, but it's possible we can revisit him. I think the main point is he's undergoing a Humiliation Conga solely because he can't resist. If he got free, he'd be back to his old tricks.
Akainu...no objections with that alteration.
edited 3rd Apr '14 2:50:57 PM by Lightysnake
@23728: Herbert and Keith White sound like keepers; cut Klondike until someone can give a more substantial rundown of his deeds.
@23765: Cut Stanworth and Preston for insufficient heinousness, Allen sounds like a keeper but he needs a better write-up.
@23778: Write-ups look good. Also, agree with Maman counting.
@23793: Good write-ups.
@23797: Another good write-up.
@23802: I agree with lighty that Tamaki should stay. Even if the Big Bad eclipses him, Tamaki is still as heinous as he can be in his position.
@23805: I'm going to have to vote to keep Maverick too. His claim to helping the NEXT always seemed like BS to me, especially since, as lighty pointed out, he plans on replacing them with robots anyway. If he ever cared about his people it seems to have been wiped out by Motive Decay. Now he just seems interested in money and power for the sake of money and power.
I actually do agree that I don't think Dr. Saleon counts. Most of his crimes are offscreen and relayed by Garrus and it's unclear whether those test subjects were people turned into monsters, or monsters already.
@23811: I'm actually thinking maybe only Saint Charloss should stay since she didn't seem as bad as Saint Charloss himself and, from what I remember, she seemed to what to avenge her father and brother, implying she cares about them.
@23812: Good write-up for the Maestro.
@23811 Thanks. I tried to despoiler them, but in my mild confusion I copied them exactly as they appear on the page. Here, I appreciate that spoiler tags are a moot point unless the work is really recent, i.e. a week or two (in which case it's normally not discussed so people can avoid spoilers and see/read/watch it for themselves).
I appreciate the spoilers in general probably need clearing up, but most of the spoilers highlighted are towards the end of the respective arcs. On the other hand, there hasn't been an SOI episode for well over a year and a half, so most spoilers are moot there as well. Opinions?
Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.Let me fix it.
- The Maestro is a future version of the Incredible Hulk. 90 years in the future after the world is devastated by nuclear war, the Hulk has changed his name to the Maestro and builds a city state out of the wreckage of New Year City and names it Dystopia. There, the Maestro rules as a dictator, taking whatever he wants from his subjects and hoarding almost all the food and resources for himself. When Maestro sees a woman he fancies, he forces her to become his slave. The outside of his palace is littered with the corpses of those who have defied or displeased him and his Secret Police patrol the streets, killing anyone who would oppose him. After the Maestro's forces have captured one of Rick Jones' rebels, he subjects him to a machine which forcibly scans a person's mind. After the device puts the rebel in a vegetative state, Maestro kills him with his own hands just because the rebel had insulted him earlier. When Rick Jones uses Dr. Doom's time machine to bring the Hulk to the future to defeat the Maestro, the Maestro takes one of his slave girl's hostage to force Hulk to surrender to him. Maestro then proceeds to break the Hulk's neck, leaving him paralyzed, and forces one of his slave girls to perform sexual acts on the paralyzed Hulk without his permission for his own sick amusement. He later murders an elderly Rick Jones, the man was once his best friend, for opposing him. The Maestro also tells the Hulk he prefers his harem of slaves to his former wife Betty Ross, because his slaves don't talk back to him or have opinions of their own. The Maestro is devoid of anything that made the Hulk sympathetic and The Hulk finds him horrifying and one of the most detestable foes he has had to contend with.
edited 3rd Apr '14 3:19:49 PM by despoa
I'll agree with cutting Saleon for totally Offscreen Villainy
The Maestro should have the blue links added in.
Degroat, One Eye and Maman writeups will be incoming
I was just trying to fix grammar and spelling. I didn't bother trying to copy the blue links by hand.
Let me try my hand at Maman.
- Maman, a Faux Affably Evil gangster in Slumdog Millionaire who lures children to his safehouse with promises of a happy and welcoming orphanage. In reality, he is training them to become beggars whose profits will go solely to him. He also blinds them to better convince tourists of their situation and maximize profits. When Latika is left behind by Salim and Jamal as they run away from him, Maman grooms and decorates Latika to be a child prostitute, planning to sell her virginity to the highest bidder.
edited 3rd Apr '14 3:20:57 PM by despoa
@ Celestial Dragons: The entry should definitely focus on the Roswalds, as the most exposed and worst of the group. There's only three of them, which I don't think is pushing it.
@ Shiliew: I'm not sure he's really done enough yet to qualify, honestly. Another thing is the most recent character guide included character relationship charts, and the Blackbeards, including the new, more selfish members from Impel Down, were listed as True Companions, same as Luffy's crew. This indicates they may care about each other.
Wanted to propose a new write-up for the Marvel Cinematic Universe's version of the Red Skull. Here's the original entry below.
- As typical of the character, we have Johann "The Red Skull" Schmidt in Captain America: The First Avenger. He kills people for no real reason even after he gets what he wants, has no loyalty to anyone but himself (even being The Starscream to Hitler), plans to annihilate all 'enemy' cities including his own capital, has POWs used in torturous experiments and plans to rule the world as the God he fancies himself as.
Here's my attempt at a more inclusive rewrite.
- Johann Schmidt, aka the Red Skull, from Captain America: The First Avenger is a profound narcissist who believes himself a god that is no longer bound by humanity's rules. The head of HYDRA, a Nazi military organization, Schmidt has turned the group into his own personal cult. He's first introduced killing the guardian of the Tesseract and ordering the entire village where it was hidden wiped out for seemingly no reason. He goes on to betray Hitler and the Nazi party to pursue his own goals and murders the three men sent to check on the status of his research. Schmidt uses the Tesseract to make fantastic new weapons for HYDRA, and has POWs torturously experimented on in order to replicate Dr. Erskine's Super-Soldier Super Serum. Despite their fanatical devotion to Schmidt, he continually shows no concern for the welfare of his men, having them chomp cyanide pills when captured to avoid giving out information on him, executing one merely for surviving an attack on a HYDRA base, and activating the self-destruct sequence at another HYDRA base when the Allied forces overrun it, not caring that hundreds of his troops will be killed in the blast. Schmidt's ultimate plan is to use his new weapons to wipe out half the planet, bombing nearly every major city including his own capital, just so he can rule over what's left.
Done.
edited 3rd Apr '14 4:58:36 PM by OccasionalExister
Pothole Red Skull and HYDRA; otherwise, MUCH better
Geeze, I don't remember him being so monstrous...maybe due to Hugo Weaving's hammy performance.
edited 3rd Apr '14 3:52:53 PM by ACW
Okay, may I add the following to Sandbox.Anime And Manga Monsters?:
- Herbert Muller from Phi Brain Kami No Puzzle
- Severin from Princess Resurrection
- Keith White in Project ARMS
- The Director from Pure Trance
on Shiliew, for low screentime and Offscreen Villainy (IIRC we don't actually see what got him locked up in the first place). We haven't really seen him do a whole lot yet. That's probably going to change when Blackbeard and company show up again, but for now, no.
edited 3rd Apr '14 4:59:22 PM by KyleJacobs
On Hamburger Time's point...I should note of the Blackbeard pirates, Shiliew is the only one who doesn't seem to have loyalty to Blackbeard. One of the others talks about overthrowing him, but it might be playful banter. Shiliew doesn't even seem to know what joking is and he pretty much says if Blackbeard fails, he's out.

"device that forcibly takes information from a subject's mind on him"? Seems grammatically odd there. Otherwise looks good. And the place is called Dystopia? Apparently Maestro's as subtle as the original Hulk.