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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#237127: Nov 21st 2020 at 1:47:50 PM

I have to say I've always had a problem with treating higher resources as a blanket statement about another villain's crimes. We had downvoted villains who molested children in The House in Fata Morgana series because even if Barnier was a wealthy, powerful lord, his worse abuse of kids wasn't a crime he necessarily needed a lot to do. Rice might have Transigen backing him with the means to commit mutant genocide but in terms of his child experimentation? He's similarly an organization-sanctioned psychopath electing to play God and murder the poor mutant kids. Pierce is just hired muscle and not only was he fully on board with the curtain call on mutants but also utterly vicious to the children being experimented on.

@ Bull, I think he's referring to the extended addition, for which it was claimed enough was shown to establish the pattern.

Edited by 43110 on Nov 21st 2020 at 4:49:17 AM

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#237128: Nov 21st 2020 at 1:50:51 PM

Solidifying a [tdown] for the Headmaster.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#237129: Nov 21st 2020 at 1:50:55 PM

43: Oh. I'm still going with a no in that case. Mainly because he still doesn't sound like he does enough. Especially compared to the Logan keepers.

Edited by Bullman on Nov 21st 2020 at 3:52:29 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#237131: Nov 21st 2020 at 1:54:52 PM

No, this is the theatrical version. Also, I don’t see him as a joke and while his death is the punchline to one, he’s not truly played comedically other than being referred to as a pedophile along with his orderlies (which again, is definitely not explicit while everything else seems explicit enough).

Also, when Russell showed up, he ordered the children to be locked up.

Also also, I don’t think we see many other regular humans beside Rice, Trask and Stryker take it this far (and they’re all kind of on a different level, so almost like apples and oranges).

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 21st 2020 at 1:57:02 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#237132: Nov 21st 2020 at 1:56:57 PM

Fair point, in another world I'd probably say yeah but thanks to the weird ass continuity now linking all the X-Men shit I've still gotta stick with my no.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#237133: Nov 21st 2020 at 1:57:40 PM

[tdown]headmaster

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#237134: Nov 21st 2020 at 1:59:31 PM

future: See if there's anything in the expanded cut.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#237135: Nov 21st 2020 at 2:00:16 PM

As I said, it’s almost unfair to compare him to those other three and Ajax because he’s so different. Doesn’t make him any less horrid on his own though.

[up]I might check out the Super Duper Cut sometime (along with OUAD), but again, totally wouldn’t mind someone else seeing that.

Shame we can’t get that elusive eighth CM for this franchise. Would be nice.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 21st 2020 at 2:13:17 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#237137: Nov 21st 2020 at 2:30:38 PM

The headmaster is tough but in the end I have to give him a [tdown]. I don’t think that he’s really unique enough to stand out given that both Zander and Pierce experimented and tortured children in much more explicit detail than the headmaster

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#237138: Nov 21st 2020 at 2:38:59 PM

No to the Headmaster, there's just too much offscreen for me to say he's bad enough.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#237139: Nov 21st 2020 at 2:43:05 PM

[tup] to Madame Yeung and Lord Super Sword.

I'll abstain on the Headmaster.

Future: I might be remembering it wrong, but wasn't Lori deemed not to count as her crimes in the time loops aren't additional, and she never tries to kill more than three people in one loop?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#237140: Nov 21st 2020 at 2:47:19 PM

Plus you know her kinda minion John Tombs kills way more people (double digits in one loop).

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#237141: Nov 21st 2020 at 2:56:38 PM

@MGD It was also because while Gregory is similar, he’s also worse.

My argument to that was that she still does enough to stand on her own. Also part of it is that Toombs doesn’t really kill anybody because Gregory freed him from what I recall (I could be mistaken though). When Lori freed him, he did.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 21st 2020 at 2:58:31 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#237142: Nov 21st 2020 at 3:00:56 PM

Not enough, Future. That’s my opinion and it’s very unlikely to change

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#237143: Nov 21st 2020 at 3:03:57 PM

[up]Fair enough. Again, I can just as easily let the EP I wrote remain buried under piles and piles of PM s (which it is now).

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 21st 2020 at 3:25:06 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#237144: Nov 21st 2020 at 3:18:24 PM

Oh I almost forgot, happy birthday Lighty!

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#237145: Nov 21st 2020 at 3:20:30 PM

So I've been reading Dance in the Vampire Bund and noticed the purge is missing from ivanovic's entry which is the worse thing the three lords do. I also reordered some stuff to put in chronological order. What do you think (Lighty gave me permission btw)?

  • OG:Ivanovic, the most vicious and unhinged of the three Lords, leads a brutal attack on the Bund to capture Wilhelmina Vlad "Mina" Tepes for his own pleasure. Once there, he deliberately targets civilians, and has the innocent fangless vampires executed to draw Mina out of hiding. He also uses as shock troops werewolves he's tortured into feral beasts that have forgotten their own humanity. Ivanovic at points attempts to rape Mina when he can and has a disturbing taste for young girls, not caring that Mina is in her younger body as opposed to her adult form; he even declares he'll only enjoy her adult body after he's had his pleasure of the younger one. In the past, he was also Grigori Rasputin, and drove Russia into chaos and ruin. Mina barely rescued Grand Duchess Anastasia from being dragged to his bedchambers at the end.

  • Rewrite:Ivanovic is the most vicious and unhinged of the three Lords. After discovering Mina's mother had married a commoner, Ivanovic and the other lords had her murdered out of spite and jealousy and later committed a worldwide purge off all other vampires to put the world under their control. Ivanovic was once Grigori Rasputin, and drove Russia into chaos and ruin, even later trying to enslave and rape Duchess Anastasia till Mina saved her. In the present, Ivanovic plays a game with the other lords where they hunt Mina's lover Akira for fun and repeatedly subjects Mina to a degrading chastity test. Eventually Ivanovic launches a brutal attack on the Bund to capture Mina for his own pleasure. Once there, he deliberately targets civilians, and has the innocent fangless vampires executed to draw Mina out of hiding intending to eventually wipe them all out. He also uses as shock troops werewolves that he's tortured into feral beasts that have forgotten their own humanity. Ivanovic at points attempts to rape Mina when he can and has a disturbing taste for young girls, not caring that Mina is in her younger body as opposed to her adult form; even declaring he'll only enjoy her adult body after he's had his pleasure of the younger one.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#237146: Nov 21st 2020 at 3:26:33 PM

Rewrite is good Mir. As for Lori? I’ve always got an issue with attempts to get a villain listed whose worst crime was “Unleash a worse villain.” By definition they’re outdone for heinousness.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#237147: Nov 21st 2020 at 3:26:47 PM

Yes to the rewrite. Will Rozenmann be getting an expansion?

Also, can that go next week? We currently got 15 on the Drafts for me tomorrow, plus I gotta write up Jinmen.

Edited by ACW on Nov 21st 2020 at 6:28:50 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#237148: Nov 21st 2020 at 3:30:56 PM

Yes. Give me a bit. Some of rozenmann's crimes are elebrated on in the sequel series. The sequel series reveals that he raped Mina's mother and the resultant child is the mina doppleganger in his entry (Katie Maurice). That and he's abused Katie in every possible way.

Sounds good. I think both hin and rozenmann's rewrite should go together.

Edited by miraculous on Nov 21st 2020 at 3:32:19 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#237149: Nov 21st 2020 at 3:49:35 PM

Again, someone else feel free to watch the Deadpool 2 Super Duper Cut. No idea when I’ll get to it.

I can’t imagine the PG-13 OUAD (Once Upon a Deadpool) makes him worse.

Also, not sure I said this yet already, but given Runeard’s approval earlier this week, we now officially have a movie with both a CM...and Olaf. Haha. Then again, there was a time when Hans once counted.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Nov 21st 2020 at 4:02:16 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#237150: Nov 21st 2020 at 3:58:03 PM

Btw for Gabe from the same series. Do we need the last two lines. Do we need to know this stuff when everything heinous he does is already in the rest of the entry. Also could we specify he's only from Volume 10 of the manga.

  • Gabe is a New York vampire crime boss sworn to Rozenmann who makes the most of his limited time. He is a pedophile and maker of child pornography who routinely taunts a stripper about paying a visit to her daughter Susy, who can't be more than six. After he learns the stripper is sheltering the runaway Mina, Gabe violently murders her friend and storms her apartment, immediately noticing how Susy is prettier than he imagined and attempting to seize her before Mina stops him. Gabe uses Susy and her mother as hostages so Mina surrenders under promises they won't be harmed. While Rozenmann's honorable werewolf retainer Gerhard is willing to give the assurance, Gabe makes it clear he has zero intention of not coming back for Susy. When Mina asks to feed, he comments he thought her child form was much hotter and if he can have Susy when Mina is done. This disgusts Mina, who mauls him to final-death and comments that his blood is as foul as his soul.

Edited by miraculous on Nov 21st 2020 at 3:58:21 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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