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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#234377: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:30:15 AM

Cut Jenna Zan Arbor

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#234378: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:33:42 AM

Hmm, I forget why I discounted the Stranger originally, but yeah sure there.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#234379: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:33:47 AM

[tup] Stranger and happy bday.

By the way, about the End of the Cycle, according to the character page and some wiki entries, apparently it is an amalgamation of souls or something? Would that not violate the “no groups” rule and/or give it sketchy agency? I haven’t played the game, so I don’t really know myself, but I would like to know about this before I vote.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#234380: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:35:10 AM

What's "End of the Cycle"? Too much shit coming through for me to keep straight.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#234381: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:36:10 AM

I'd almost say that a wiki should be dissuaded given how sketchy information can be, but that should be addressed.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#234382: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:37:37 AM

Oh shit, looking back at the page I see Critica also raised a concern about Jatice... I haven't seen the work and that's an old one of Elfen's. Can anyone confirm? It sounds like it could just be a front he puts on.

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#234383: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:37:53 AM

[tup] Demon, and a Happy Birthday to Timber

So Halloween's tomorrow, but since I know a certain Count's going to make several appearances that day (call it a hunch), I'm going to propose an incarnation of him today.

Just want to give massive thanks to Mir for informing me about this one.

What Is the Work?

Sherlock Holmes and the Vengeance of Dracula is a script from 1999. The movie was in production at the time, with Chris Columbus set to direct. But then Harry Potter happened, and the project never came to be.

The plot? Sherlock Holmes and Watson vs Dracula and Moriarty. Nuff said.

Who Is He?

Count Vlad Dracula is an aristocratic, Transylvanian vampire who seeks to make all of England his own vampire empire.

What has he done?

Originally Vlad the Impaler of Romania, a prince who commanded hordes of pillaging warriors through many lands such as Turkey, Vlad was defeated by Dr. Abraham Van Helsing, Lord Arthur Holmwood, and Dr. John Seward after his murder of Lucy Westenra. But because they forgot to decapitate him after staking his heart, Dracula continued to live, now plotting vengeance on the three for attempting to kill him. Traveling to London via boat, Dracula awakens at a shipping harbor and murders two people who messed with his coffin. Murdering Holmwood and making it look like a suicide, Dracula later gives nightmarish hallucinations Seward before killing him.

After a scuffle with Holmes and Watson, Dracula is confronted by Moriarty, who wants to make a deal with him. Dracula, feeling like he could use Moriarty's resources to relaunch his career as a high class thug and ruler, agrees to his partnership. Afterwards, Dracula attempts to take the life of Van Helsing, but he’s stopped by Holmes and Watson.

Moriarty finds out that Dracula had turned his valet Sahid into his zombie-like slave and his personal dancer Mollie into a vampire, promising the criminal mastermind a chance of immortality once Holmes is dead. After Moriarty’s henchman Dawson fails to kill Holmes, Dracula kills him by impaling his heart with a metal spigot, using it to drain his blood into a goblet for him to drink, an act which disgusts even Moriarty.

Dracula, feeling he needs to get closer to Holmes to truly defeat him, bites his love interest Constance Bracknell, turning her into his own personal, sexually charge slave, whom he’ll make his new vampire bride. After Moriarty brings him the unconscious body of Watson, Dracula has him turned and used to attack Holmes, while also framing Sherlock for the murder of Seward. Dracula doesn't just want to kill Holmes; he wants to make him his mindless slave, which even he describes as a fate worse than death. Disappointed with Moriarty’s attempts at killing Holmes, Dracula reveals to him that he had turned his two henchmen Lewellyn and Mangier/Mangler into his obedient slaves, having them bring him a drunken bum to feed upon.

But Moriarty has a trick up his sleeve. He withdraws Dracula’s blood using a needle and injects it into Sahid, which turns him into a vampire. Despite Moriarty attempting to use Drac’s blood to make himself immortal, Dracula is given a dastardly idea. Using his blood, Dracula will turn all of London into vampires and claim the throne of the British empire as his, with Constance serving as his vampire queen as they both rule the new vampire dynasty. This makes Moriarty form an alliance with Holmes in order to take the Count down.

Dracula later murders photographer Uriah Terkel so that he can use his darkroom van as a way to get around town. With the van, Dracula heads to the Rivington Gas Works, where he’ll interfuse his blood into the gaslight network of London, the tainted fumes turning all of its inhabitants into members of his vampire army. Once Holmes, Watson, and Moriarty arrive at the plant to stop him, Dracula does everything he can to kill them.

After he’s killed by Constance, who snaps out of her trance, Dracula is immediately resurrected. For you see, during their fight, the poisoned fumes turned everybody in London into vampires, which granted him enough power to revive himself. Dracula tries once again to slay Holmes, but he’s stopped when Holmes has several splinters fired at him an intense speed, which stake his heart, wounding him to the point where he can no longer attack. Bleeding badly, Dracula attempts to bribe Moriarty with the chance of immortality should he remove the stake. Moriarty decides that he’d rather keep his humanity, and promptly decapitates Dracula with his cane sword.

And don't worry, everybody in London turned back to normal after Drac's death.

Redeeming Qualities?

Um, no. He only values Constance as his property, viewing himself as her slave master, and is angered that she loves Holmes over him because of how possessive he is.

Heinousness?

Easily surpasses it with his murders and grandiose plans.

And before anybody asks, Moriarty doesn’t even come close to counting. The first half of the script treats him like a Big Bad Wannabe Butt-Monkey, while the second half has him help out Holmes because Dracula’s the bigger threat. Plus, he genuinely cared for his black mastiff dog, whom Dracula turned into a demon.

Conclusion

My first Dracula keep.

It's Spooky Month!
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#234384: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:39:14 AM

The End of the Cycle is the Eldritch Abomination from Stellaris that someone EP'd that tries to wipe out the entire universe after making a Deal with the Devil.

I never got that far in Stellaris because I kinda suck at it, and I'm not sure of its nature. I'll just be abstaining.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#234385: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:39:34 AM

Yes to Drac, congrats on your first jackie!

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#234386: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:48:38 AM

[tup]Dracula

Great that it panned out.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#234387: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:51:34 AM

Yes to Drac, though can we also sort some stuff out? 43 just brought up a fair point on Jatice from a previous post....from research, Jatice seems obsessed with "order" and "justice" for its own sake that's more a reflection of his own ego, but I've never seen it

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#234388: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:52:54 AM

Re: Afton: Look, as the one who got called in to rewrite this over a year ago and seeing on the YMMV page people have been dicking around with it... do we have to number the kids? Can it not just be "killed multiple children"? A specific body count isn't necessary and I have no idea why someone put in a final sentence to ZCE-link to another page to talk about him some more. Not really a fan of my stuff being screwed around with just because.

[up] From the sense I'm getting, I'm inclined to say he's a narcissistic Knight Templar at best and I'm fine with cutting the WIE entry until further research is done.

Also anyone on if "End" is like a SID situation or a VIRM one? There's too much flying around right now and I don't want good points of debate getting lost in the mix.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 30th 2020 at 11:55:32 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#234389: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:56:48 AM

I think Red Skull and Ultron may JUST beat Vitiate, and Karza's not too far behind.

Yes to the demon and Drac.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#234390: Oct 30th 2020 at 8:58:33 AM

ACW I love you buddy and I'm down to make fun of Vitiate with you on Facebook but can we focus on some of the more contentious things here.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#234391: Oct 30th 2020 at 9:03:06 AM

[tup]Drac (why are there so many crossovers between Sherlock Holmes and Dracula, what do they even have in common anyway?)

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#234392: Oct 30th 2020 at 9:03:19 AM

Chiming in: I play Stellaris, but I've never encountered the End of the Cycle. That being said, though, I feel like from what I know, it's not really characterized.

Edited by nrjxll on Oct 30th 2020 at 11:03:41 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#234393: Oct 30th 2020 at 9:03:32 AM

According to the initial EP, other cosmic beings like the End have Blue-and-Orange Morality.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#234394: Oct 30th 2020 at 9:03:59 AM

[up][up][up][up] I don't know jack about Jatice. I'll vote to cut Jenna.

Edited by ACW on Oct 30th 2020 at 12:04:08 PM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#234395: Oct 30th 2020 at 9:06:30 AM

I'll throw my hat into the cut Jenna discussion, though I'll abstain on Jatice and the End of Cycle, since I have no real knowledge of both properties.

It's Spooky Month!
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#234396: Oct 30th 2020 at 9:07:32 AM

End is starting to sound more and more questionable to me tbh.

I could have my mind changed on Jatice but as Elfen conscripted me to do the writeup for him and knowing what I know about the guy, I'm inclined to say keep.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 30th 2020 at 12:09:00 PM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#234397: Oct 30th 2020 at 9:09:10 AM

Inclined to agree with njr on it not being characterized. To my knowledge, The End is never really characterized at all. The closest thing to a personality it has is saving your empire for last when it comes to the destruction.

TiMBer1566 kittykat from Virginia Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
kittykat
#234398: Oct 30th 2020 at 9:10:31 AM

Should the demon share the entry with Il-Gwang, or do you think he does enough to stand out on his own?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#234400: Oct 30th 2020 at 9:12:57 AM

Yeah there's too much there, I'm saying no to End.

Couple things to just keep in mind when posting so they don't get lost:

  • Stance on Jatice's intentions having at least some good to them.
  • Whether or not End has the characterization/agency/understanding of morality to count.
  • Whoever else wants to agree or raise a point about Jenna being cut.
  • Whatever minor adjustments we're making to Afton's entry.

[up][up] Your EP only implied it was covering the Stranger.

Edited by 43110 on Oct 30th 2020 at 12:13:45 PM


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