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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#234276: Oct 29th 2020 at 2:28:52 PM

[tup] Weishu. That arsonist dude not heinous enough?? Whoa.

Also, Scraggle, when you write up Weishu, mind expanding Zenadia?

Also, someone we missed from American Vampire? Huh. The Beast hasn't done enough yet, and Skinner himself has mitigating factors...

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#234277: Oct 29th 2020 at 2:30:34 PM

[up] Nah, it's not that he's bad enough—rather he's got loved ones whose death helped to instigate his downslide into murderous insanity.

One other I'm gonna post from Battle Magic just because she made such an impression...one of Weishu's servants, the imperial mage Jia Jui.

Who is Jia Jui? What has she done?

One of Weishu's imperial mages, Jia Jui seems to bond with the ten-year-old Evvy during the latter's time under Weishu's roof. Their applications of magic are different, but the two both seem to love cats and seem to have the same passion for magic as each other.

Then Evvy learns Weishu is a raging nutbag, and, as it turns out, Jia Jui really isn't much better. That slaughter at the fortress I described was perpetrated by Jia Jui herself, who spares Evvy only because Weishu wants her alive for information. Jia Jui subjects Evvy to a particularly awful and merciless round of torture, even as her underlings plead to stop since Evvy's just a kid. Jia Jui decides it isn't working and remembers they share a love of cats—so why not bring up two of Evvy's cats and torture them to death in front of her?

It's at this point Evvy tricks the soldiers into thinking she's dead through a magical coma. To conceal her failure, Jia Jui promptly executes the two soldiers who accidentally let Evvy go, but too little, too late—Evvy's vengeful allies arrive on the scene and kill Jia Jui and her soldiers.

Any mitigating factors?

Alright, so, steep-ish heinous standard, but Jia Jui perpetrates one of the worst mass murders in the series. It's on Weishu's orders, but the callousness of Jia Jui torturing a ten-year-old girl she'd earlier taken the time to befriend after having massacred a giant population down to the babies is really played up for everything it's worth. It's notable a lot of books in the series are even lacking villains—Jia Jui is about as reprehensible as it gets in the series for a secondary villain, considering she appears in three or four chapters particularly.

Conclusion?

I'd say keep her. Judge for yourselves.

Edited by Scraggle on Oct 29th 2020 at 3:31:20 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#234278: Oct 29th 2020 at 2:33:27 PM

Yes to Jia Jui.

So I have the tree looking like this:

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#234279: Oct 29th 2020 at 2:33:31 PM

[tup]Jui

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#234282: Oct 29th 2020 at 2:38:28 PM

[tup] Arktos, Weishu and Jia Jui. Cut Alzena and Nurhar.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#234283: Oct 29th 2020 at 2:50:07 PM

[tup] The Tooth Fairy, Arktos, Weishu, and Jia Jui.

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#234285: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:14:42 PM

[tup] Jia Jui.

Edited by Beast on Oct 29th 2020 at 3:14:58 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#234286: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:24:44 PM

[tup] Weishu and Jia Jui.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#234287: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:35:38 PM

[tup] to Edward "Shadow" Marquis, Charlotte "Boggy Bay Toothfairy" Gibbons, Arktos, Emperor Weishu Maorin Guangong Zhian and Jia Jui.

Kappaclystica Since: Jan, 2019
#234288: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:40:00 PM

So, on Super Sentai, one section on the current page says this:

Samurai Sentai Shinkenger: Even among the vile Gedōshū, these two stand out as truly despicable

  • Sujigarano Akumaro shows that a villain can take a show to even darker levels even if it was already fairly dark to begin with. The Gedōshū at large wanted to create enough anguish to cause the Sanzu River to rise high enough to flood the world of the living, thus enabling their incursion thereof. Akumaro, on the other hand, wanted to open a portal to Hell because he wanted to enjoy absolute human suffering—even though said opening would destroy both the human world and the Sanzu River. He also made Fuwa Juzo's sword from Juzo's dead parents, whom he murdered himself. His monstrosity extends to even the Ayakashi who serve under him; they seem specifically made to cause as much suffering as possible in order to further his goal, which was to use the suffering of people as a wedge into one of six precise points along a line, at the center of which was a portal to Hell.
  • Fuwa Juzo was a remorseless Blood Knight to the point that even his fellow Gedōshū wouldn't trust him; he even only became a Gedōshū in the first place so that he could keep killing in spite of his sickness. Akumaro saw potential in him for his ability to walk the line between humanity and the Gedōshū and sought to use him to open the gates of Hell. However, he throws a sharp wrench into the plan, declaring that he already knew that his sword made by Akumaro was made of his parents—a fact which Akumaro had recently told him to bring him to a Despair Event Horizon—and that he didn't care.

I've changed the formatting to this, and put it in Super Sentai Monster:

Samurai Sentai Shinkenger

  • Even among the vile Gedōshū, these two stand out as truly despicable:
    • Sujigarano Akumaro shows that a villain can take a show to even darker levels even if it was already fairly dark to begin with. The Gedōshū at large wanted to create enough anguish to cause the Sanzu River to rise high enough to flood the world of the living, thus enabling their incursion thereof. Akumaro, on the other hand, wanted to open a portal to Hell because he wanted to enjoy absolute human suffering—even though said opening would destroy both the human world and the Sanzu River. He also made Fuwa Juzo's sword from Juzo's dead parents, whom he murdered himself. His monstrosity extends to even the Ayakashi who serve under him; they seem specifically made to cause as much suffering as possible in order to further his goal, which was to use the suffering of people as a wedge into one of six precise points along a line, at the center of which was a portal to Hell.
    • Fuwa Juzo was a remorseless Blood Knight to the point that even his fellow Gedōshū wouldn't trust him; he even only became a Gedōshū in the first place so that he could keep killing in spite of his sickness. Akumaro saw potential in him for his ability to walk the line between humanity and the Gedōshū and sought to use him to open the gates of Hell. However, he throws a sharp wrench into the plan, declaring that he already knew that his sword made by Akumaro was made of his parents—a fact which Akumaro had recently told him to bring him to a Despair Event Horizon—and that he didn't care.

Is this better?

Edited by Kappaclystica on Oct 29th 2020 at 3:40:21 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#234289: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:43:08 PM

Hmm, I don't know. What say everyone else?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#234290: Oct 29th 2020 at 3:48:31 PM

I'd dice the intro line... don't like the push to the second bullets, it's very awkward.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#234291: Oct 29th 2020 at 4:09:50 PM

New No Sleep candidate incoming.

This one is from My Sister Was a Feral Child; think The Woman condensed into a short story. It tells of a girl named Miranda, who was raised by her "grandparents" and was tasked by them to raise her "cousins". One day, she is introduced to her latest cousin, a girl named Clara who is feral. You can probably guess where this is going...

Anyways, the candidate is the unnamed Grandpa.

Who is he ? What does he do ?

The unnamed patriarch of the family, "Grandpa" is a deeply religious man who believes in the tradition that man is the head of the house, and the best way to salvation is by multiplying. He has also taken to raising his grandchildren, of which there is about a dozen, and keeps them isolated at his home in a wooded area. In the initial parts of the story, Miranda exposits of how her and her "cousins" respective mothers abandoned them in the woods, before "Grandpa" saved them. Miranda, being the oldest, was raised and educated by him for years until she came of age, where he dumped all responsibilities onto Miranda herself for taking care of the rest of the children as all good women should. Eventually, Miranda is introduced to her newest cousin, a mute, malnourished thirteen year old girl named Clara. With Miranda burdened by having to take care of Clara, "Grandpa" tells her that he'll reward her with a trip and free her of said responsibilities.

Clara eventually escapes the house, forcing Miranda to chase her down, eventually finding her at an abandoned house in the middle of the woods. It's here where we get the horrific truth about the family; within the house, an emotionally distressed Clara show Miranda the disposed remains and shrines of multiple infants...and their mothers. After Miranda and Clara find help at a nearby house and get the police involved, is the full extent of "Grandpa's" activities is revealed. He was trying to start a Breeding Cult within the family due to his belief that multiplying is the way to salvation, but he had a sterile wife. To remedy this, he had some women kidnapped and held at the house as Breeding Slaves, and all of Miranda's cousins are in fact, his children. The lot of the babies died in infancy, some of which were Mercy Killed by their mothers, but Clara was protected somehow. When she was discovered, "Grandpa" murdered his slaves as punishment, and planned to start a new Breeding Cult from his six daughters when the come of age (Miranda being next in line as she's of pubescent age; that was the "reward" he promised her earlier).

Luckily after being exposed, "Grandpa" is subsequently arrested, and is last mentioned to have died in prison.

Mitigating Qualities ?

That's a laugh and a half. He expressly starts his small Breeding Cult because he thinks making babies will get him into heaven; his children are an extension of such a goal, and with his "traditionally patriarchal" mindset, was grooming them (especially his daughters) into continuing his breeding operations. His wife is mentioned throughout the story, but we get a good indication that he didn't care about her; she was sterile, and the only reason he didn't divorce her over it was because he didn't believe in divorce.

As for the heinous standard, that shouldn't be an issue; he keeps women captive as sex slaves before murdering them, and is directly or indirectly responsible for a lot of infant death. Not to mention his incestuous plans for his daughters...

My concern here is length and if it's a sufficient enough story, as the story is two thousand and five hundred words long, but I'd say there's enough substance; the bulk of the story goes over Miranda's life at home and how she has to take care of her cousins and as fast paced as it is, it also focuses on her new relationship with Clara; the Breeding Cult reveal isn't unto; the stories climax, and even then it isn't fully explained until well after "Grandpa's" arrest and death.

If you want to be sure yourselves, the link is above.

Edited by Beast on Oct 29th 2020 at 4:10:52 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#234292: Oct 29th 2020 at 5:43:42 PM

I guess on Grandpa. These 2000 word Nosleep stories are just ugh.

Now...from an old friend, American Vampire. I give you Bernard D. Bloch.

Who is Bloch?

Bernard "BD" Bloch is a Carpathian vampire. Now, Carpathians are old school aristocratic Europeans, created by Dracula himself and used to wipe out all other schools of Homo Abominae, or the monsters of legends. Vampires have spread through human society as masters from the shadows until a freak mutation resulted in outlaw Skinner Sweet becoming a new American breed which are stronger, faster and have different weaknesses/strengths...which presents a problem whenever Bloch and team try to have him killed.

So, Bloch's lair is in Hollywood where he essentially runs the joint. The comic opens with Pearl Jones, aspiring actress and workaholic waitress living with her roommate Hattie. Bloch, however...to go back, Bloch is like most Carpathians, a vicious serial killer who kills people to feed. When homeless aspiring star Chase Hamilton was cornered by Bloch, and almost fed upon, a vampire hunter tracking down Bloch ambushed him to save Chase...and Chase cracked him in the head and fed him to Bloch, thinking they could make a deal...Bloch provided Chase with stardom and wealth. Chase provided him with victims. Every single night, Bloch's coven takes in fresh young women, ripping them apart and draining them with sadistic glee. There is a mountain of corpses disposed of here, which is the sad fate that befalls Pear, who barely survives...only for Skinner, on a lark to turn her into an American Vampire and set her up against Bloch...

Bloch is also a terrible boss, I should note. while having tons of innocent women killed, he mistreats his followers and is shown to keep humans in a secret larder, alive and in agony with hooks lodged under their jaws, to be bled and drained very slowly, one begging that he has a family before Bloch helps himself to "something to eat."

Pearl goes wild on the Coven, tearing her way through them for revenge, slaughtering Bloch's forces until Bloch expresses his desire to capture her, force her surredner and then find out her weakness by "stabbing you with every goddamn thing under the sun until I find out what hurts most!" He also reveals Hattie has worked for him the entire time and he backstabs Pearl. Thanks to the intervention of Pearl's admirer, former marine and guitar man Henry Preston, Pearl manages to escape and takes the fight to Bloch as he's having a victim suspended from the ceiling with limbs removed, bled into a dish. Bloch's coven is annihilated and Bloch himself is killed in a ray of sunlight...seemingly.

Bloch's human familiars drag him out, but the coven destroyed, Bloch is forced into hiding, becoming a serial killer underground as he feeds on innocents until Hattie returns, now an American Vampire who takes control, with Bloch helping to plan an attack on the Vassals of the Morning Star vampire hunters to see them wiped out under Hattie's control. Capturing Pearl, Hattie waltzes off to slaughter everyone as Bloch begins torturing her to amuse himself, before the other good American Vamp, former soldier Calvin Poole, blindsides Bloch and beheads him.

Mitigating Qualities?

As for good qualities, Bloch has none. Carpathians are said to become sociopaths when turned, but we see at times they can love (his subordinates Lucia and Edgar are in love with one another) and even have standards or friendships. Bloch does not give a single fuck when his subordinates or allies die, and while he's broken to Hattie's will later, he privately reveals he hates her, and that he might even welcome dying given what he's been reduced to. Another comic shows a couple unwillingly turned into Carpathians who aren't evil and resist the hunger as long as they can until they have themselves mercy-killed as not to be monsters.

In heinousness, Bloch's hollywood operation and cruelty are the worst of any Carpathian beyond Dracula himself. he's literally worse than the Carpathians who are actual Nazis and far worse than others like Bram Percy who are evil, but businessmen first and don't demonstrate much sadism...Bloch has the widest count without being a world-ending threat.

Conclusion?

I'd give Bloch a yea.

Critica7 Self-Declared King of Everything from Smallville Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Self-Declared King of Everything
#234293: Oct 29th 2020 at 5:52:16 PM

@Beast: She wasn’t voted down per se, she just didn’t receive enough votes either way. Maybe she’ll get another shot someday, but it is what it is.

Yes to Lighty’s guy, but I’ll abstain on the nosleep one. He sounds heinous enough for sure (his crimes basically match Craster’s) but the format is one I have no familiarity with.

Edited by Critica7 on Oct 29th 2020 at 5:55:03 AM

Check out my current fanfiction project.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#234294: Oct 29th 2020 at 5:57:56 PM

Yeah, I'm ambivalent to Grandpa, but sure. Yes to Bloch, obviously, and I got a quick separate post for his familiar Chase Hamilton:

Who is Chase Hamilton? What has he done?

Chase Hamilton is quite literally the first villain to appear in the story. The scene that opens up the series' first issue focuses on a truck literally full of savaged bodies dumping them into a cliff filled up from the bottom with even more savaged bodies, all of them unlucky victims of Bloch and his coven. One young woman gasps at the bottom of the sea of corpses that she's still alive. Who led this young lady to her doom and who is the one making all these corpses possible? Hamilton.

Chase was a nobody who managed to climb to Hollywood stardom in the 1920s by becoming the familiar of B.D. Bloch. When saved by a vampire hunter from Bloch and told that Bloch was, in fact, a vampire, Hamilton responded by murdering the vampire hunter before he could kill Bloch.

On what's implied to be a nightly basis, Hamilton tricks aspiring young starlets and other such nobodies into meeting B.D. Bloch where they'd become the victims of B.D. Bloch and his particularly sadistic feedings. One of these women is Pearl Jones, the young lady atop the sea of corpses who was charmed by Chase Hamilton and led to her death like so many others. When Pearl comes back to life as a vampire courtesy of Skinner Sweet, Skinner leaves Chase as Pearl's first victim...and Chase doesn't even recognize the young woman he'd led off to her doom scant days before. Pearl promptly slaughters him.

Any mitigating factors?

As Bloch sets a standard for the usual Carapathian vampire in the series, Chase Hamilton is a cut above the usual familiar's by the sheer density of his body count. His actions enable Bloch's continued depravity and he knowingly provides Bloch dozens upon dozens of victims for the sake of his own personal fame.

Other human villains in the series don't get the body count or individual characterization Chase does. Even Dracula's own servants and the Nazis/Japanese officers don't get the unique amount of characterization that Chase does.

Conclusion?

Keep.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#234296: Oct 29th 2020 at 6:01:52 PM

[tup] Bloch and Grandpa.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#234297: Oct 29th 2020 at 6:07:25 PM

Yes to Grandpa, Bloch, and Chase.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#234298: Oct 29th 2020 at 6:10:49 PM

He's to Bloch and Chase.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#234299: Oct 29th 2020 at 6:12:14 PM

Yes to Lighty and Scaggle's... not touching nosleep.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#234300: Oct 29th 2020 at 6:18:14 PM

Can an erotic thriller have a candidate? I am currently watching this film with this Femme Fatale, Serial Killer but it has multiple needlessly long, drawn out sex scenes, one or two of them aren't even plot relevant just long for pure fan service.


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