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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#23276: Mar 26th 2014 at 10:47:28 PM

Loredo's entry looks great. I think the Bill Sikes example just needs a little more detail and context before I give it my seal of approval.

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#23277: Mar 26th 2014 at 11:19:59 PM

Reading the latest Superior Spider-Man Team Up involving Norman Osborn and Doc Ock and, wow. Will Osborn be needing an expansion to his entry in the close future?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#23278: Mar 27th 2014 at 1:39:14 AM

[up]Please elaborate.

[nja]OE, please add your new Loredo writeup to VG Monsters.

edited 27th Mar '14 2:19:36 AM by ACW

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#23279: Mar 27th 2014 at 6:18:54 AM

Here's an attempted rewrite of Damien Thorn from The Omen. It may be wall of texty.

  • The horror series, The Omen, has the son of the Devil himself, Damien Thorn. What's interesting about Damien is that he truly did not want to be the Antichrist at first, and that he was horrified by this revelation. However, overtime, he had come to terms with his destiny as the son of the Devil, and tried to do his father's wishes. The second film involves Damien going to live with his aunt and uncle after his parents died in the first film. When he revealed to his cousin that he was the Antichrist, he tried to ask him to join him. When he refused, he murdered him by introducing an aneurysm into his brain. He then sets his aunt and uncle on fire at the end of the film. The final Omen film presents Damien as the Ambassador to Great Britain. When he finds out that the Second Coming of Christ was on the horizon, he made a decree that every boy in England that was born on March 24, 1982, be executed as a means to stop the Second Coming. He goes on to manipulate a female journalist's son, and later uses said son as a human shield when Father DeCarlo tried to use a dagger against him, and then he strangled the Father to near death. He also manipulated Barbara into murdering her husband with an iron when he gave her a vision of her son being used as a burnt offering. And then she irons her baby to death.
How's this?

edited 27th Mar '14 2:33:34 PM by AustinDR

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#23281: Mar 27th 2014 at 9:20:21 AM

@ Occasional Exister

So then do I remove Yuriev from the page or does it require a vote or...? I've never really done much with modifying any page on here.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#23282: Mar 27th 2014 at 9:29:47 AM

For the Video Game page, I think we can leave the subpage list as is since were all discussed and agreed to keep.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#23283: Mar 27th 2014 at 9:30:29 AM

Edit request for locked pages thread there.

Should we keep the Miang discussion going?

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#23284: Mar 27th 2014 at 10:10:10 AM

If you wish. I'm not sure what more can be said on the topic. I've looked through Perfect Works a bit to try and find some clarification on Miang's agency or free will but couldn't find anything definite. As you noted, she expressed many emotions in the game and we see her laughing at people in torment on a few different occasions. Also the fact Cain turned against Deus shows that being a part of the weapon doesn't necessitate being its slave.

Personally? I think Miang's dialogue with Ramsus after he attacks her is proof of some sort of bond she has with Deus. She is its slave in some fashion. Moreover, when she becomes Elly, she's all business and rather dispassionate. I do believe she was just carrying out what she was born to do and her various displays of emotion, be they loving or spiteful, are just means to an end. But it's impossible to say and all I can offer up is an interpretation. The facts would seem to support her having agency on the surface at the very least.

edited 27th Mar '14 10:12:43 AM by Nikkolas

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#23285: Mar 27th 2014 at 11:03:52 AM

@23290 Spoilers, anyway. Osborn teams up with Doc Ock and tells him that he lost his wife to some illness. Doc Ock tells him that he had a fiance he had to break up with. Osborn thinks that in order to have the same mindset in targeting Peter Parker, they must suffer the same agonies. So Osborn causes a car crash that almost fatally injures Ock's ex-fiance. Osborn brings Ock to the hospital with him to tell the news and says that she's ok, only to reveal to him moments later in front of him that he infected her with a deadly virus.

The guys I read the issue with thought he gave her AIDS.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#23286: Mar 27th 2014 at 11:19:46 AM

[up] Is this Norman himself or the mysterious "Goblin King" who's the Big Bad of Superior? Because we still don't know if that's Norman.

edited 27th Mar '14 11:19:52 AM by HamburgerTime

despoa Since: Aug, 2012
#23287: Mar 27th 2014 at 11:49:55 AM

This takes place before Superior Spider-Man and here, you clearly see Norman Osborn's face and Doc Ock explicitly confirms his identity.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#23288: Mar 27th 2014 at 11:59:03 AM

Yikes. Only caveat: Did Norman care about his wife?

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#23289: Mar 27th 2014 at 12:00:42 PM

Once upon a time. Now? He cares about nobody.

His character was markedly different back in the old days.

Oh, and for the Minecraft thing, I'm good with Israphael being rewritten

edited 27th Mar '14 12:22:31 PM by Lightysnake

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#23290: Mar 27th 2014 at 2:34:35 PM

On the Damien writeup, should I mention that in the third film he anally raped the journalist woman, or is the writeup good on its own?

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
#23291: Mar 27th 2014 at 2:38:24 PM

Sure, add it. Though I'm not sure that you have to specify that it was anal..

edited 27th Mar '14 2:40:14 PM by Camberf

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#23292: Mar 27th 2014 at 2:40:24 PM

I'll probably not mention the rape part. Personally I think the writeup is good on its own terms.

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#23293: Mar 27th 2014 at 3:41:38 PM

Question to anyone who's watched Kill la Kill: does anyone know what Ragyo was saying in her last moments? It seemed clear that she was unrepentant to the end, but her words might help us reach a clear verdict on her.

edited 27th Mar '14 3:41:52 PM by ANewMan

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#23294: Mar 27th 2014 at 3:44:12 PM

I'd worry about spoiling this for people as the Crynchyroll subs aren't out, but I don't think we need spoilers for something like 'the bad guy dies in an action show.'

But for the facts, I've heard

she's threatening the remaining life fibers will return to earth and destroy them all.

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#23295: Mar 27th 2014 at 4:33:12 PM

Hey regarding the Iron Man villain the Controller, he was rejected for being too generic, I have found a someone who claims he is a pretty evil guy:

http://www.comicboards.com/php/show.php?rpy=ironman-2010010414573002&search=Controller+&layout=thread

The trouble is I am having some trouble confirming some of this, I can't find a lot of details about him online, something that could give me issue numbers to look at. I want to if some of this stuff happened off panel or not.

sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#23296: Mar 27th 2014 at 5:01:50 PM

I noticed that some have beat me to discussing Ragyo's eligibility already. No matter, as she and Nui's part of my watch list, it's time to find out if they qualify once and for all. First the Elephant in the Living Room: Ragyo Kiryuin.

Who is Ragyo Kiryuin, anyway?

Ragyo Kiryuin is the CEO of Revocs, a clothing corporation that is part of the Kiryuin conglomerate (which she also leads). Since clothing identify a person’s rank and power, owning Revocs makes Ragyo the most powerful woman within the series’ universe. She also serves as the series' Big Bad, as she plans on using Revocs to enslave (and eventually annihilate) the human race to the Life Fibers.

What does she do?

Similar to my preliminary post for Nui Harime, I'm going to discuss her crimes in chronological fashion. Even before defecting to the Life Fibers, the show makes it clear that she had a desire to dominate others and had morals that were described by her dragon Rei as questionable at best. Once she discovered the Primordial Life Fiber, she saw an opportunity to dominate over all humanity and thus defects to conduct her plan to absorb all humans with the power of Life Fibers. As she sees herself above human, the first crime we see her commit is test her infant daughters in brutal, grotesque experiments to incorporate life fibers into their DNA. When the experiment showed that Satsuki could not overcome her body's natural resistance to fibers, Ragyo treats her as a failure and instead manipulates her into becoming a tool for COVERS. Her next subject is her younger daughter Ryuko Matoi. When the experiments go horribly wrong and seem to have killed Ryuko, Ragyo callously and carelessly disposes her in the trash. This was the moment where Soichiro, Ryuko's and Satsuki's father, has a Heel Realization and defects from Revocs. Seeing both of her children as failures, she goes to the Primordial Life Fiber and uses its artificial womb to create her own Humanoid Abomination attack-dog: Nui Harime.

Her next prominent crime is just before the start of the series. Once she found out where Soichiro is hiding and what he is creating (the Scissor Blades), she orders Nui to retrieve the scissors and kill him. Sometime later, in Episode 16, we find her "purifying" Satsuki. By purifying, I mean Ragyo gleefully committing sexual assault on Satsuki by groping her in the bathhouse. But this is only the tip of the iceberg, as the next episode shows her using an Atheltics and School festival as a front for the life fibers to consume an entire stadium worth of people. Ragyo expresses sadistic glee as the life-fibers teachers, family members (including Mako's family), and students are being consumed just before Satsuki turns on Ragyo and joins Ryuko and Nudist Beach. Episode 18 shows just how sadistic and ruthless she is, as she is shown beating the living crap out of her daughter Satsuki with no mercy before fingering her crotch and stripping Junketsu. She was maniacally laughing and sporting a nightmarish Slasher Smile throughout this No-Holds-Barred Beatdown. She then goes far as to ambush and tear out Ryūko's heart and show it to her, just to mock her being partially human.

A Time Skip shows her and the Original Life Fiber control literally everything in the city. COVERS openly stalk the streets searching for humans to devour, much of the population has been enslaved, and the few that remain free live in constant fear of a COVER coming up behind the corner and killing them. During this Time Skip, we find out that Ragyo imprisoned Satsuki for her rebellion for a month, suspended naked in a cage underground, being psychologically, physically, and sexually abused by her mother. Before Satsuki's great escape from the prison, we find out that Ragyo was planning to use her older daughter as a power source for a giant Kamui. When Ryuko is provoked by Nui to raid the Revocs Corporation, Ragyo captures her. Knowing that her younger daughter wanted a better life, she substitutes all her memories with those of a happy life with her mother, all whilst grafting Junketsu onto Ryuko's body. This drives Ryuko into cranking a Face–Heel Turn and being sent to kill her older sister and Nudist Beach. If that wasn't enough, Episode 21 then revealed that Ragyo and Nui had a threesome with Ryuko during her brainwashing, an act that counts as molestation, since Ryuko most definitely wasn't in her right mind at the time.

Episode 22 shows her unleashing life fibers to consume and kill corporates from her own company as well as those from her rivals in order to complete her final plan: utilizing the Primordial Life Fiber to consume and annihilate Earth in order to spread Life Fibers across entire galaxies. To wrap up her long, long list of crimes, Episode 23 shows her consuming Rei in order to complete Shinra-Kotetsu in Satsuki's place and molesting Nui in order to create Life Fiber prosthetics so Nui could buy Ragyo enough time to kill her daughters. When Ryuko finally defeats her in the final episode, Ragyo callously refuses Ryuko's offer to come back to earth as her mother by destroying her life fiber heart, thereby committing suicide. Before disappearing into nothingness, Ragyo states that the Life Fibers will return to haunt Earth one day.

Any Freudian Excuse, redeeming qualities, or other mitigating factors?

No Freudian Excuse is ever mentioned. In fact, she all but flat-out rejects empathy as a whole. She shows no love to her subordinates Nui and Rei. Case in point: in Episode 23, she absorbs and kills Rei in order to test her Kamui. Let's not even get into what she calls "love" for her daughters, which is a sick, incestual desire to dominate them through sexual assault, and what she does to them if they rebel against her.

How does she match up by the standards of the setting?

The standards found in series from Studio Gainax and its Spiritual Successor Studio TRIGGER have always been a bit tricky to define. The standards found in Kill la Kill were no exception.

However… what makes Ragyo’s crimes so disgusting is that her actions are depicted dead seriously. Moreover, every terrible event that happened to Satsuki and Ryuko is traced to Ragyo Kiryuin. Given the sheer amount of crimes in her belt and the fact that those crimes contrast so sharply and horrifically with the over-the-top world that is Kill La Kill, she clears the heinousness test by a country mile.

Verdict

Is Ragyo the most evil character Gainax/Trigger has ever created? Undeniably, but that's not the point. My point is that Ragyo Kiryuin is by far THE most sickening, horrifying, and sadistic villain I have seen in any genre within any form of media since Lotso. If Ragyo's not a CM, I don't know who is. A passionate [tup] from me.

edited 27th Mar '14 10:29:24 PM by sanfranman91

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#23297: Mar 27th 2014 at 5:04:12 PM

Yes, for Ragyo, it's really just formality at this point. Not even her devotion to the Life Fibers is redeeming as that's just a level of twisted narcissism for her. she has absolutely zero redeeming qualities and her actions are simply abhorrent. She crossed the line in episode 17 and she's just kept climbing.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#23299: Mar 27th 2014 at 5:23:58 PM

[tup] for Ragyo. What a bitch.


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