During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sorry about that, fixed that little typo.
The problem is being Made of Evil doesn't always mean one cannot choose one's own path, especially in settings with free will. Just following one's nature is one thing, but Adventure Time never indicates the Lich is a slave to what he is. He's an Omnicidal Maniac because he wants to be, and beings in AT have very often has beings who have free will, no matter what their origins, which indicates the Lich is not a slave to his nature.
Okay. I think that clears it up.
Second question: It says that a Complete Monster must be played seriously at all times. So does that mean comedic villains like Xykon should be disqualified?
Nope. A CM can be funny or laid back as long as the evil actions are played straight. Keep in mind, Xykon is an amusing guy when he's bored or laid back. This is something of an act. When he does something evil, it's played dead seriouslyand he's shown he's way smarter than more serious than he appears when the chips are down.
In Start of Darkness, we're meant to think he's Redcloak's pawn until the end when he reveals he's known everything the entire time and Redcloak confused Xykon not caring with ignorance. In essence, if the villain's evil deeds aren't played for comedy (And Xykon's sure aren't) then it's fine, even if they make funny jokes (like Kefka Palazzo or the Joker).
also, I think we're at a surplus of votes to cut Hades
edited 22nd Mar '14 9:39:14 AM by Lightysnake
Lizzid people!
Xykon counts as a CM, because he's still treated as a serious threat in-universe, even if the reader finds his actions as hilarious. It's not funny in-universe for the people involved. An example would be the Joker. In several movies, comic books, or shows, the Joker is always taken as a threat to be reckoned with, even if the reader interprets his actions as just being Black Comedy.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah yes, the old difference between Laughably Evil and evil Played for Laughs.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
What are your thoughts on the written CM entries that were found on ''YMMV/Kaijudo''?
- Complete Monster: The Choten; the Kaijudo Masters might just see the Creatures as weapons, but they at least bother with ensuring their protection and taking care of them like pets (or properly maintained tools). The Choten, on the other hand, experiments on them, imprisons them, uses them as living batteries, and doesn't care about the pain he causes them (nor about the damages they cause when he lets them loose on Earth). And he only get worse and worse as the series goes on. Ray even lampshades it during their fight:
- That said, he does genuinely love Tiera, her "death" even being implied to be the reason he went power hungry, nd is pretty willing to reward his minions when they please him (even allowing Alakshmi to have the Sword of Fire when he almost suceeded), so he does have a bare minimum of decent qualities.
- Heller could count as one too, seeing how he apparently has no problem with shooting at kids with a highly dangerous light creature, treated said creature badly, and even ran over Master Nigel Brightmore with a truck.
- Megaria, The Collector. She eats Scaradorables for snacks, keeps human beings as collections, proceeds to Mind Rape them For the Evulz, and at one point attempted to crush people to death.
Personally, I think the entries weren't written that well and The Choten might or might not count due to the heinous acts being offscreen. And the others like Heller and Megaria doesn't meet the heinous standard.
edited 22nd Mar '14 9:50:44 AM by ZetaRidge
Lizzid people!
I honestly don't remember the show that much since I wasn't interested on the story or characters at the time.
Except that I believe the reason Abridged!Freeza was removed was because he was Laughably Evil, despite the fact that he did all the same things that the original Freeza did and was arguably even worse than his canon counterpart since he was motivated by sheer boredom. Yes he was hilarious to the audience, but he was absolutely terrifying to the characters In-Universe. And as it says on his folder under Knight of Cerebus: "His villainy is not played for laughs by anyone other than himself."
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, not familiar with the work, but if that's the case, he probably shouldn't've been removed.
Freeza in the Abridged series also wonders about sending condolence baskets to the Ginyu Force's families, and blows up members of his group for trying to unionize while gloating about blowing up Planet Vegeta on Space Twitter...I think there's a disconnect there. Plus, his killing his own men is pretty often played for laughs (killing one as an example to Zarbon, blowing up another to avoid discussing Zarbon's sexuality).
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
One thing I think I might do after going through the TV monsters (but before Anime and Manga) is go through each folder and see if any of the subpages can be put on the main page...
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
I actually interpreted the "Fruit basket" scene as an example of Pragmatic Villainy. Considering how casually he brings it up ("Oh, and I should probably send the Ginyu's families something..."), and the fact that he mostly seemed pissed off at the inconveniance of their deaths, rather than being genuinely upset. I don't think he really cared about them, I think it was just standard company procedure (Likely thought up by his father) to send gifts to the families of high-ranking members in the event of said members death.
Also, to again use the comparison above, Xykon has been Played for Laughs on multiple occasions. Case in point. So if he can still be considered a Complete Monster, why not Abridged!Freeza?
edited 22nd Mar '14 10:27:35 AM by Lunacorva
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
That...is actually not an invalid point about Xykon.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Honestly, I think the better way to word the Played For Laughs thing should be that a CM CAN have comedic moments, but their qualifying atrocities must be taken seriously In-Universe. (They can make jokes about it themselves).
I don't think I have an issue with that. We've had too many questions about The Jokerand other villains to make it an issue that we need to make clear..
Here's another question I have:
In regards to the factor "Their actions must be considered atrocious BY THE STANDARDS OF THE SETTING". A way I've seen that interpreted, is that the atrocity must be unique to the character, that it can't have been done by someone else. But does that mean that if three people commited an atrocity (Ie gang-raping a child for fun) that only ONE of them would be considered a Complete Monster?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Nope. Groups are disallowed, but I think three together could count.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Also, all three of them were...unique individuals.
For the 'groups' rule...we might allow it if it's a very small group like 3 people. However, generally, no more than 5 are allowed as a rule of thumb
Okay, I just feel that it's a wierd distinction to make. I mean, could you imagine if a real court operated that way?
Judge: You have been found guilty of the murder of a thousand newborn babies! For this crime, I sentence you to life in prison!
Convict: Wait, I wasn't the only one. Steve did it too.
Judge: Really? Okay then, you're free to go. Have a nice day!
Is it me, or are we having a lot of issues with ZC Es for Akame ga Kiru!? Anyway, here is the latest entry from its YMMV tab:
- Complete Monster: The Wild Hunt team as a whole. No redeeming values to anyone from this group whatsoever as they go about destroying, killing, and raping, everything that catches their attention.
I already PM'd the person who added the entry. I haven't read the manga, but are the members of the Wild Hunt part of an ongoing arc? If so, then we should immediately cut until all members are dead or are in a position where they cannot significantly affect the story in any way again. If not, then maybe should investigate these characters as well as the previously deleted Prime Minister (I read the history of the manga's YMMV tab).
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
I can confirm that Shura is part of an ongoing arc and therefore is temporarily disqualified. Although from what I heard about his crimes after 5 or so minutes on the Wiki for Akame ga Kiru!, he could qualify once he's out of the manga's picture. Need to know more about the other members and where they stand at the moment...
edited 22nd Mar '14 12:27:49 PM by sanfranman91
Together, we are one.
Groups don't have moral agency though. You can't charge a group with a crime, only an individual. However, you can charge different individuals within the group.
I think which members of a group are C Ms and which ones are not, depends on a lot of factors, which group members are more responsible for the group actions, who initiates the group's action, is the leader the one making the group do these things or is there a member who is worse then the leader. Sometimes a group can be made of nameless Mooks and only the leader has any real personality or sometimes The Dragon is worse then the leader and he is the real monster. Sometimes the leader can be the aggressive one, with all the followers being passive or sometimes the The Dragon can be more aggressive then the leader, with the leader being more passive.
edited 22nd Mar '14 1:04:38 PM by TheOverlord
Oh, I didn't catch that![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]")
. Still good writeup, though.