During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@43 Yeah, I saw some of your subsequent comments. I still have a lot of problems with this, not least because you earlier said a hypothetical work about a real-life serial killer that omits his atonement in prison would be valid. Why the sudden change in opinion?
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Oct 1st 2020 at 8:11:19 AM
Okay, you're being pedantic and frankly this is annoying: I don't know if you didn't read everything I've said in full or you're purposefully omitting some of my points in the hopes you can discredit my argument or this is genuine attempt to ask a question that just happens to look like it falls under a bad pattern I've seen but I wouldn't have said "Let's put up a real life serial killer who does exactly what they do in real life." I would have been referring to a dramatized version of one with creative liberties on part of the writer... we don't trope real life people. Don't do the cycle back to ask a million questions to hold off the debate, it's hard to feel we're talking in good faith when this happens.
I didn't "change my opinion" don't try putting words in my mouth.
Edited by 43110 on Oct 1st 2020 at 11:17:59 AM
Showtime!
I've always felt a little weird about some of the music candidates too
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Imp, this is also a recurring issue. It happens every time someone even suggests a cut
I mean, they’re all characterized in some way or rather, I think it just depends how much that characterization is similar to the real guy.
In general about cuts: I really need to know when you argue against one it's genuinely because you're questioning the logic and not just whatever thoughts can be thrown up in the hopes someone can be kept. I know you always argue back saying there have been cases you don't fight one but everyone has noticed the tendency and stuff like telling Scraggs his candidate sounded silly but in that case you'd say yes seems like a contrived post so you can cite it as a case you implied you paused to think about. We really have to be on the same page here man.
ACW, I think you can see the difference between something like Death of Stalin Beria where the film has obviously been made for entertainment and takes a darkly comedic twist on the events in the Soviet Union vs. four minutes of singing about why Heydrich was bad. How much expansion does this point need?
Edited by 43110 on Oct 1st 2020 at 11:33:15 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
I am back. My other cousin has come to help with the baby as well and I have some free time. Not much, but more. Yes to Mystery Girl and I agree with 43 on the music stuff.
ACW: For Fan Games, what are we going to do with Equestria at War? Which is at Fan Works: Crossovers. I mean it is technically a crossover, but it's also a Game Mod.
Edited by Bullman on Oct 1st 2020 at 10:33:06 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Messenger from another dimension.
Yes to Mystery girl. Also, there is another character from the court show that I want to EP. I strongly doubt she will make it and almost positive she won’t... but her crime is super heinous and she is a huge Hate Sink. Also, warning; this EP might not be as detailed; it’s being written from iPhone. It’s a fairly new episode; the show has very recently been renewed since 2011. I will actually have to describe the episode because... it will be hard to just EP a candidate.
‘’’Episode’’’
A woman named Anna Szymanska is accused of poisoning her two baby girls. She sits on trial and denies she did it and claims how deeply she loved them. However, her husband and mother-in-law call her “monster” and grandmother even says “she is the grandmother of those two beautiful angels who are now at the cemetery.” Nana reveals that before she found out they were dead, a mysterious blonde girl visited them as a nanny candidate and she might have done it. However that doesn’t seem reliable... but it’s revealed that month passed and further invistiarifation was made a trial resumes...
‘’’who is she?’’’
Enter Patrycja Szymanska, the very blond girl who was mentioned and testified as a witness. Anna identifies her as the mysterious girl who was nanny candidate. It’s revealed she was an illegitimate daughter of the father of two murdered baby girls. She testifies... and then her friend does. A friend reveals who thing. Patrycja arrived to town to meet her father. When she found out he didn’t care for her as much as he did for those two baby daughters, she told her friend “those two little filths will pay for stealing her father!” So she posed as a nanny... and then putted very high medicine in the milk of two little girls which resulted in their death. A judge Anna Maria asks her but Patrycja says “I refuse to speak without my attorney!” Anna Maria says it’s her right but still asks the guard to escort her.
Anna Szymanska is declared innocent. The narrator reveals Patrycja got 25 years in jail.
‘’’Heinous?’’’
Well, this one crime is one of the most heinous on the show and the prosecutor and the grandmother both say “killing pure innocent children is something only a beast could do.” Hell the episode is even called “Deaths of two Pure Innocents”. However, admittedly I am afraid that it’s still “one crime” and there were admittedly other super nasty crimes committed (not in this new season but still).
‘’’Verdict?’’’
Huge Hate Sink but I am afraid... probably not but I am glad I got this out at least.
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Hmm, good point. I'll have it at both just to be safe.
Poisoning 2 babies? I'll say yes.
Only seeing one act of double murder. Not enough for me
Shin Megami Tensei IV
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Patrycja Szymanska. I think that many serial killers outheoinous her
For itself it counts, the issue is that there is the Serial Killer from the same show that is Up and other multiple murders in the show.
Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 1st 2020 at 10:39:22 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Messenger from another dimension.
This show had only ONE serial killer (whom we agreed a keep only few days ago) but I understand your valid concern.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
There weren't other people with over three murders? (The Serial Killer counted because he was by far the worse)
Watch me destroying my country
Buddy was a serial rapist and killer IIRC... this one sounds like a nasty piece of work but likewise not quite seeing her keeping.
Messenger from another dimension.
There were actually. There was a guy who murdered family of three. That’s not serial killing though.
Edited by emperors on Oct 1st 2020 at 11:44:03 AM
Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Shin Megami Tensei IV
This is IMO, a textbook case of how Out Heinous works. The character would count easily (kills two babies? Enough) but because there are villains even worse (Rapist serial killer or the guy that killed a family), she sadly doesn't count
Edited by KazuyaProta on Oct 1st 2020 at 10:45:01 AM
Watch me destroying my country
Yes to Lucrezia and Mystery Girl.
No to Szymanska.
Holding off on voting on Phillip until the Monolith Deathcult matter is resolved.
- Savage Dragon: Emperor Kurr, Dragon's former identity, was the "Chosen One" of the Krylans. As their brutal ruler, Kurr maintained control by violence and savagery, raping his consorts and tearing apart any he slept with. Upon locating earth as a new home, Kurr attempted to exterminate all mankind before being betrayed and overthrown. Kurr later resurfaces and exterminates all humanity, gleefully attempting to murder his own children.
- Nightman: Mr. Chang is a corrupt Chinese diplomat who is involved in arms dealing. Conducting a series of murders to strengthen his "bidding" for powerful technology, Chang attempts to murder Johnny Domino and all who know him to obtain the technology Johnny has. When Johnny becomes Nightman, Chang tries to kill his lover and murders all rival arm dealers so he can use his new weapons to start World War 3 and drive up the price of his weaponry. Later returning to torture Johnny mentally and destroy him utterly, Chang shows nothing short of sadistic glee in death and destruction.
- Devil All The Time: Carl Henderson is an amateur photography who, with his wife Sandy, gets into serial murder. Picking up hitchhikers, Carl forces them to strip, sleep with Sandy as he photographs them, before torturing and murdering them. Murdering a reverend at first when he refuses to participate, Carl spends the next 15 years killing many innocents, taking immense pleasure in their helpless terror and agony before killing them and keeping the photos as trophies.
The Monolith Deathcult stuff? NGL, i'm pretty disinterested after like the eighth "I'm a historical villain LOOK HOW EVIL I AM". Even if theykeep, it gets tiresome after like the sixth one.
Edited by Lightysnake on Oct 1st 2020 at 8:49:27 AM
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
No to Patrycja Szymanska. Seems to be not be heinous enough for the show.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Messenger from another dimension.
to Patrycja Barenska.
Speaking of the historical figures in songs, one cut I would propose is Anthrax's version of Adolf Hitler. Now that I'm echoing 43110's concerns, I think this version of Hitler is just a carbon copy of the real version with no personality, so I think this candidate should be cut.
Edited by DrUnknown on Oct 1st 2020 at 8:51:39 AM
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I sadly (because it's my entry) wouldn't disagree. Ditto, maybe, Slayer's Mengele.
I THINK Sabaton's Karadzic may be okay, since it's from his perspective.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Music by nature is coming in at a disadvantage because it has such a short time frame to establish the necessary criteria for this trope. The Monolith Deathcult might have some of the baddies characterized enough but—with some exceptions—just seem to be historical people committing war crimes and other atrocities they did in real life. The songs remind us that what they did was evil but I'm not seeing any fictional nuance to most of them. The fact that something like 13 characters were planned to get pumped out from this band is giving me further pause. I'll say again, cleaning the music page was a cumbersome task, let's not let it decay again until we have to repeat the same process.
Sabaton's Hitler would have to go too.
@43: I suppose we should take a little time to clear the air.
To be frank, I think a big part of why this recurs is because I tend to be on a different wavelength from most of the thread. Sometimes, I feel like people go along with certain decisions a little too quickly. Sometimes, I think the rules aren't being applied consistently. To be frank, I think my priorities are different, and so is my mindset. IIRC, you once talked about the importance of efficient decision-making. Well, I don't place quite as high a premium on efficiency, and tend to care more about examining whether we're making the right decision. I also seem to interpret our criteria and the reasons we have them differently.
Still, I think you have a point in one regard: much as I would like to, I can't say there's no emotional basis in some of my objections. And in this case? The fact that these concerns are popping up right as I'm working my way through a band's discography... I can't help but feel a little attacked. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that's not your intention, but feelings aren't always rational. That's probably why I "played the man" a little, so to speak.
Even so, my objections to this aren't entirely emotional. Would you mind giving me a little time to gather my thoughts?
Breivik I could happily live with getting cut but from what I recall, the film altered the character's stance on his attack, going from questionable sanity to racist sociopath.
Haven't seen The Man with the Iron Heart, can't comment there, though I'm much more forgiving of a film taking its own interpretation of a person and making a story out of it than I am a band deciding to sing about someone's crimes for four minutes.
@ Imp, Well you listen to the song and decide if they've just taken shit the person did in real life and sung about... or taken creative liberties to use them as the villain of their own setting: I'm sure you can distinguish between Vlad becoming Dracula and a Nazi war criminal just doing things we know about from historical documents.
Edited by 43110 on Oct 1st 2020 at 11:07:03 AM