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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#230777: Sep 30th 2020 at 2:34:46 PM

[tup] to Garnes Back.

@ImperialMajestyXO: I'd say that there isn't a limit to how pragmatic a villain can be before it turns into a mitigaing quality, so long as their reasons are purely pragmatic.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#230778: Sep 30th 2020 at 3:26:46 PM

Sure to Garnes. More than happy you took it and I don’t have to read it jack.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#230779: Sep 30th 2020 at 3:28:14 PM

A bullet was dodged. [lol]

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#230780: Sep 30th 2020 at 3:32:07 PM

Eh, the manga’s alright. Nowhere near as edgelord as the OVA, but not really worth a read considering it’s so short and unfinished.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:32:43 AM

It's Spooky Month!
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Sircray Since: Apr, 2018
#230782: Sep 30th 2020 at 4:39:06 PM

So, I went looking for a possible image for the Goosebumps page, and these were the best ones that I could come up with:

  • Slappy 1 ("Amy, I can hurt you and your family in a hundred ways.")
  • Slappy 2 ("Loosen up, Zane. Don't look so wooden!")
  • Karl Knave ("How you feeling, Todd? I'm going to turn you plastic now, and forever tiny. Does that scare you? It should.")
  • Oswald Manse ("Oswald Manse is mean. He and his brother were filled with a cruelty so deep, some said they were pure evil. Oswald Manse and his brother burned down half this town. They set it on fire—for fun. People died. So many people...")

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#230783: Sep 30th 2020 at 4:41:00 PM

[up]not really a fan of any of them. Don’t look very evil out of context.

[down][tup]Legion

Edited by nwotyzal on Sep 30th 2020 at 4:42:58 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#230784: Sep 30th 2020 at 4:41:14 PM

Final guy from Shadowman. We got Legion, from the six-issue series released riiiight at the tailend of the comic's life—Legion.

Who is Legion? What has he done?

Legion is a sadistic demon and the master of the Asylum, a place in the Deadside said—and demonstrated—to be a place or greater torment than anywhere else in creation. Legion seeks passage to the Liveside to bring the corruption of the Deadside to Earth and goes about whispering into the minds of several awful serial killers, convincing them to commit suicide to join him as his lieutenants in the Deadside. Among them is Jack the Ripper, who is the one who designs the Asylum itself—his blueprints include lovely places like the "Castration Station" and the "Tower of Pain."

Legion seeks the soul of a woman named Astrid—imbued with a strange magical energy, as she's a twin whose sibling died—to open up a gate to Liveside. Legion has one of his killers torture Astrid to death in the real world (massacring much of the prison she's kept in, as well), leaving her ravaged corpse for Shadowman to find in the real world as he prepares to sacrifice her soul in the real world.

The nastiness of the Asylum is a detail shared with the video game: when we finally get to see the depths of the Asylum, we see countless, countless souls being tortured, experimented upon and amalgamated into demons which Legion intends to unleash en masse upon humanity—and there are a lot of these demons. Shadowman, ultimately, manages to overwhelm and destroy both Legion and his Asylum.

Any mitigating factors?

Nope. Legion shares a lot of villainy with his game counterpart but there's differences between the two—beyond the fact the 1999 Shadowman is tied to a prexisting continuity, the Astrid plot is something unique to the comic while junking stuff like Legion posing as Shadowman's dead little brother from the game. He's an easy keeper, and the strongest demon in the Shadowman universe (aside from those like Malagant and Degamund who just kinda float in the background, doing nothing—making the argument for Legion a lot stronger) so no worries about him knocking any of the others out of the standard.

Conclusion?

Keeper.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#230785: Sep 30th 2020 at 4:42:53 PM

[tup]Legion

Would any of his serial killer minions count too like on the game ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#230786: Sep 30th 2020 at 4:43:33 PM

[tup] to Legion.

[tdown] to the Goosebumps images.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#230787: Sep 30th 2020 at 4:44:11 PM

@Mir: I'd say probably not. None of them really have the independent characterization or onscreen villainy their counterparts do—closest would be Jack, who like his video game iteration was the one who designed the Asylum (under the original title "Cathedral of Pain").

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#230791: Sep 30th 2020 at 4:59:39 PM

[tup] Legion (for we are many)

It's Spooky Month!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#230792: Sep 30th 2020 at 5:01:34 PM

[tup] Legion.

Hell, if Jack creates the Asylum, maybe I'll read the issues he's in and see if he counts? Or would it be a waste of time?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#230793: Sep 30th 2020 at 5:14:48 PM

I mean, do people want a post on Jack? I can sum up his entire role in the issue in a paragraph.

Jack's his usual self; the first few pages of issue 3 opens up with Jack's initial murder spree (seven victims—that they discovered, anyway) and him presenting Legion with the design for the Aslyum and all its tortures, then killing himself to join Legion in the Deadside. He doesn't appear again until issue 4 where he's part of the many killers attempting to slaughter Shadowman—the narration explicitly notes that even if Jack has the lowest body count of the three main killers Legion has (the dude who kills Astrid and the prison included) he's still the worst out of all of them for his direct responsibility in creating the Asylum.

He also gets a really good death—he's stuck, jaw-first, by a meat hook Shadowman promptly kicks into a vat of grease before lighting him on fire, which, given Jack is already dead, destroys his very soul.

Edited by Scraggle on Sep 30th 2020 at 6:18:01 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#230794: Sep 30th 2020 at 5:19:35 PM

From that little bit...I'm actually leaning yes in Jack. Torture Technician extraordinare. Or at least mentioning him in Legion's writeup.

Edited by ACW on Sep 30th 2020 at 8:20:45 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#230795: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:00:48 PM

[tup] to Legion.

Now for my next EP:

What's the work?

Who is he? What has he done?

Philip II is the King of Spain and the overlord of the Seventeen Provinces of the Habsburg Netherlands. Coming to power after the abdication of his father Charles V, he's unpopular, but nevertheless receives the throne by virtue of being his only son. More crusader than statesman, he sets his eyes on the Dutch protestants, who he considers heretics. Ignoring a petition from 200 nobles, he sets up an Inquisition court that begins persecuting the protestants.

Eventually, the mass executions trigger an uprising. While the rebels attack the property of the Catholic Church, other citizens flee, knowing the inevitable retaliation won't be pretty. Indeed, an angered Philip demands the brutal suppression of the rebellion. He sends 20,000 Spanish troops led by the Duke of Alva to put down the revolt, condemning the Netherlands to a bloody campaign.

Under Philip's orders, Alva institutes the feared "Council of Blood" after arriving in Brussels, sentencing countless people to death and ordering tortures to rival the Saddam Hussein regime. Philip even allows the Count of Egmond and Lord Hoorne, both of whom had always been loyal to him, to be condemned to execution. These executions only spark more rebelling, leading Philip to order yet further cruel measures. Out of anger at William the Silent's supposed treason, and hoping to decapitate the Dutch and crush their spirit, he orders him assassinated. This backfires.

Lyrics:

Charles V was old and weak when he abdicated his throne
Philip II was unpopular but his only son
He was no statesman but a crusader of The Roman Church
A grave and sombre man resolved to heretic purge
The hunt on the heretics brought the Dutch in state of war

200 Nobles petitioned Philip to not institute the feared Inquisition Court
Philip refused the petition and burned more heretics at the stake
A mass revolt broke out feeded with unanimous hate

Yeah we pull down the images of the false church
We pillage the temples of the popery
Defacing the paintings and tapestries of ancient Rome

With fierce contempt we destroy the symbols of the dishonest
The Dutch flee to everywhere to escape the Spanish punishing

The Dutch stubborn as always started to provoke Philip II
Mass revolts in the Netherlands start with anti-Catholic looting
The Iconoclasm Fury broke out and idolatry burnt
Philip was outraged and condemned the Netherlands to the Bloodcampaign

The ravagings of the churches filled Philip with great disgust
"Strangle, burn, behead them!"
He ordered punishment with iron fist

He sent duke Alva to the Netherlands with 20,000 Spanish troops
Arrived in Brussels he immediately instituted the feared Council of Blood

Cruel religious terror swept over the land with a relentless full force
His Counter Reformation sentenced countless people to be burned upon the stake
Heretic corpses everywhere, columns and stakes await every single street
The Duke punished with an art of torture beyond Saddams wildest fantasies

Silhouettes of butcheries and martyrdoms
A new skyline was born
To terrify the Dutch he killed Count Egmond and Lord Hoorne
A shockwave went through Holland because they had always been faithful to the Spanish king

The Dutch stubborn as always started to provoke Philip II
Mass revolts in the Netherlands start with anti-Catholic looting
The Iconoclasm Fury broke out and idolatry burnt
Philip was outraged and condemned the Netherlands to the Bloodcampaign

Philip II felt betrayed and ordered:
"The Silent must be slain!"
The Stadholder of Orange died in Delft lying in a pool of blood
The Dutchmen may have lost their Chief but their National Spirit reinforced

Heinous standard?

The Dutch protestant rebels engage in looting, vandalism and even arson, but that's peanuts compared to Philip's ordering of mass murder.

Freudian Excuse? Redeeming qualities? Other mitigating factors?

The only thing one might see as a redeeming quality is his anger at the burning of churches, and that's portrayed more as a "you dare defy me?!" moment than an actual case of Even Evil Has Standards. Other than that, nada, zip and zilch.

Verdict?

[tup]

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Sep 30th 2020 at 6:03:09 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#230796: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:09:01 PM

[tup] to Legion and Phillip

Edited by G-Editor on Sep 30th 2020 at 3:09:33 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#230797: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:19:54 PM

Yes to Legion.

I think the Oswald Manse quote works well enough.

Edit: Disregard the second bit. I thought it was in regards to quotes, not images.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Sep 30th 2020 at 9:20:59 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#230799: Sep 30th 2020 at 6:28:49 PM

[tup]Phillip

couple of things

1) I think the first sentence of Keeper Argruss' EP needs to be changed from

"Keeper Agruss, also from season 4, is the cruel Zygerrian taskmaster of the Kadavo mining facility."

to

"Zygerrian Slavers arc: Keeper Agruss is the cruel Zygerrian taskmaster of the Kadavo mining facility."

2)on the warlock's entry, in the final sentence "The warlock also reveals that he gained his mystic knowledge by entrapping a supernatural beast...by leaving a baby for it to eat and catching it while it bathed after the meal." I think we should remove the three dots in between beast and by.


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