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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Critica7 Self-Declared King of Everything from Smallville Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Self-Declared King of Everything
#230726: Sep 30th 2020 at 10:38:51 AM

Quote proposal:

Yes, Gregor understood the need for actions to receive answers. Several of his men looked up, grim-faced. They may have averted their eyes from his gaze but not from the ruins of Lorn, the laughing warrior's corpse still twitching as his limbs tried to realize that they were attached to a dead man. Good. Let them stare. Let it be a reminder that he was not their friend. He wasn't their drinking buddy and he wasn't one of them, looking to swap japes and tales. He might fight with them, drink with them, eat with them, and sleep beside them, but he wasn't one of them. He was Ser Gregor Clegane, the Mountain that Rides, and any that thought they could jest with him purely because they'd slaughtered the same village could join Lorn in watering the Riverland with their blood.

—On Gregor Clegane, A Man of Iron

Check out my current fanfiction project.
DukeNukem4ever Since: Jan, 2017
#230727: Sep 30th 2020 at 10:44:02 AM

[tup] to Greg, abstain on Akan and definitely [tdown] to Griffin. I always knew something was iffy on his entry, but never saw the film or thought too deeply about it.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#230728: Sep 30th 2020 at 10:48:23 AM

[tup] to the Gregor quote, but abstain leaning [tdown] to Akan.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#230729: Sep 30th 2020 at 10:51:55 AM

Yeah, the inherent issue with Akan and sole reason I proposed is that it is so ambiguous. It's not a clear-cut case at all, and I don't think something so...surface level interactive should just automatically be assumed to be the most positive light.

I'm happy with Akan not going up, hell I've felt he didn't count for years, but this is by no means a simple open and shut case of Even Evil Has Loved Ones. Their dialogue isn't anything but flirtation and banter, their physical interactions are just lustful grinding and kissing while mocking Henry, and it's a twist that, though more personal than "she was The Dragon all along", isn't given near enough detail to just slap the label of "they care for each other deeply and it's redeeming for Akan, no question about it." I think there's much more room for debate and discussion there, hence the proposal.

Edited by Ravok on Sep 30th 2020 at 10:55:39 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#230730: Sep 30th 2020 at 10:54:24 AM

Oh, yeah, there's nothing there saying Akan absolutely firmly does love her and care about her, but I also feel there's not enough indication otherwise. It could very well just be Akan being Akan, but it's too unclear for me to say.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#230731: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:01:03 AM

TBH, I think that's all clear evidence he does care about her. I don't really think it's ambiguous without a scene to throw ambiguity. They get on great, they're physical with one another, they're married. It's a clear no for me

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#230732: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:02:49 AM

Agree to disagree on that one.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#230733: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:05:56 AM

Got another Acclaim-Valiant candidate. Ultimately decided against one of the vilest (Donald Kelvin) for a redeeming quality (he murders thousands but does it all in the name of a promise he made to his mother) and I might go for the Big Bad of Eternal Warriors.

We do however have at least three more candidates from the Shadowman comics, one from Garth Ennis. My first is from the first issue of the obscure spin-off Deadside.

Who is Alexander? What has he done?

The protagonist awakens on the bed of a bespectacled ex-Mad Doctor ("Are you a doctor?" "No. Not anymore.") who introduces himself as Alexander, who explains the protagonist's circumstance in perfectly honest terms; he hired two thugs to kidnap the protagonist, then murdered the thugs after the delivery was made so Alexander and the protagonist could go on...a scientific journey.

Alexander begins by killing the protagonist and bringing him back to life, over and over and over, in an attempt to discover the horrific purgatory of the Deadside. This goes on for years on end. This escalates to worse and worse tortures until Alexander is subjecting the protagonist to as much pain as he can possibly be kept in, left a mangled sack of meat from one ghastly torture to the next—this also goes on for years. Finally Alexander puts him in a sensory deprivation chamber, isolating the protagonist from all experience, before dissecting the protagonist and finally chopping him to pieces.

This prolonged torture takes fifty years, the protagonist kept conscious throughout all of it. Finally when both have died, Alexander sees what the Deadside is; nothing but howling, eternal torment, which the protagonist leaves Alexander to languish in...

Any mitigating factors?

Alexander's reason for torturing a man in every way he can for half a century: "Because I can."

Yeah. The limited scope of his victims is offset by the sheer horror and length of what he does. Deadside is a bleak-ass series, but Alexander is really the only villain with any onscreen crimes.

Conclusion?

Keeper. Easy.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#230737: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:10:30 AM

And a 'Yes' to Alex, always happy to see more candidates come up from a work I'm planning to eventually watch/read

Well even if Akan is a miss, I got the best character from the film up for MB anyway, so I certainly ain't complaining wink

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#230738: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:10:35 AM

[tup] Alexander.

...Okay, you've made me curious...what was the promise the dude made to his mother?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#230739: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:10:48 AM

[tup]Alexander

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#230740: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:15:53 AM

@ACW: Mmmkay, so here's the deal with Kelvin: he's a "mule", the son of an immortal father and a mortal mother. When his mother passed away, she informed him of his true heritage and he inherited her bitterness at having been turned over by his immortal father, and promised over her graveside he'd see the immortal society destroyed—a promise he notes he's kept for 150 years (he has an extended lifespan).

Now, one of the big twists is that Kelvin's allegiance is to an immortal, the comic's Big Bad, Mog, and Kelvin's motives seem to shift gradually more toward power for the sake of it, but nothing really shoots down the inferences he cares for his mother and his hatred for the rest of immortal society is based on what she told him.

[down] Yeah, they're separate. Legion is basically just his video game counterpart with a few changes to the rapsheet, but they're distinct. Who I'm really looking forward to is my post for Garth Ennis' "Tommy Lee Bones."

Edited by Scraggle on Sep 30th 2020 at 12:26:56 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#230741: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:22:33 AM

Hmm, so a hypocrite, but still not a CM. Will Mog be one of the EP's?

Also, I remember you said you weren't sure if Legion is just an adaptation of the game. You figured it out yet? I'm kinda curious myself.

EDIT: Ah, cool, so Alexander, Bones, Legion, and maybe Mog?

And since I forgot, yes to Greg Harper.

Edited by ACW on Sep 30th 2020 at 2:39:32 PM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#230742: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:43:44 AM

[tup] Bob, Greg, and Alex. What terrifying villainous names.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#230743: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:44:59 AM

[lol] I'm hoping Lighty EP's Engra "the Butcher of Praag" Deathsword.

Edited by ACW on Sep 30th 2020 at 2:45:07 PM

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#230744: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:51:02 AM

[tup] to Bob Barbas, Greg Harper, and Alexander. A weaker [tup] to RED soldier too.

Abstain on Ming T'ien.

[tdown] to Akan.

Here's another candidate. Thank you to Lightysnake for allowing me to cover this.

What's the Work?

Awesiaki is a Web Original creepypasta by the troper, Beast. This serves as a stealth sequel to The Red Maiden: Grace's Story, though its connection to this story is relegated to a couple of references and thus isn'ttoo necessary to read before diving into this work. This story is set in the 17th century, where Europeans have begun colonizing the Americas and one such colony is the titular Awesiaki, a settlement established by Minister Benjamin Chase in the hopes of creating a beacon dedicated to God and for everyone to live in harmony. Unfortunately for the colonists, there are many dangerous creatures they face, which, according to a group of sasquatches called the Forest People, are creations of a malevolent deity named the Devourer. However, these beasts, nor the Devourer, are the subject of this effort post. Instead, it's one of the colonists...

Who is Greeshawn Chase and What Has He Done?

Greeshawn Chase is the son of Benjamin, in which his father tried to raise him to be a Christian minister as well, but Greenshawn's own greed and ego often conflicted with Benjamin's teachings, believing that it was his right to take rather than give to others. This belief extended to his actions as well, where he would steal things or beat the other children because he thought that his status as the Minister's son gave him that right. Greeshawn also makes friends with another colonist, Erik Müller, and the two hunt together, though Greeshawn discreetly abuses his friend like manipulating him into becoming bait for a bear. However, Greeshawn notices that something has been stealing bait from his traps and on one of his hunting trips, Greeshawn finds out that a twelve-year old boy named Jaralath is the thief, whom he beats up and tries to present him to his parents as a gift. Understandably shocked and angered, Benjamin admonishes Greeshawn and after Jaralath gets settled in his new community, makes Greeshawn apologize, to which he only begrudgingly does.

Notably, Greeshawn has also been praying next to a window, ostensibly to God, but it's later revealed that he's actually been in contact with the Devourer, the malevolent entity mentioned earlier. The Devourer cuts him into a deal: it'll give Greeshawn control over the dangerous creatures in the forest and in return, Greeshawn will use his new army to spread more destruction, Gleeful at the prospect of accumulating more power, Greeshawn accepts. After going out on a couple of more hunting trips with Erik to presumably learn how to use his newfound army, Greeshawn goes out on "missionary trips" to seemingly reach out to sinners and bring them back to Awesiaki to seek repentance for their sins, but he actually raids villages and murders numerous civilians, while bringing the survivors to the mines to be worked to death as slaves. All of his slaves are also forced to become cannibals, as he only gives them human parts as food. He also later enslaves the Forest People he captures and uses the mines to breed more monsters to add to his army. At the same time, Greeshawn begins to present himself to the colony as a devout Christian devoted to spreading the word of God, even though he is anything but.

The dangerous creatures that were secretly part of Greeshawn's army are discovered by the colony, who initially didn't believe Jaralath and Mahalia (a girl that the colony finds and takes in earlier in the story) claims until an expedition of colonists were attacked by these creatures. This further boosts Greeshawn's reputation in the colony, since he had also claimed that such creatures existed. Simultaneously, Greeshawn being spending less time in the colony and more time raiding villages and capturing even more slaves. Eventually, Benjamin discovers Greeshawn's crimes, but he's strangled by his son before he can share this information to the rest of the colony. Greeshawn also begins to lust after Mahalia, offering to become her husband, though she refuses. Furious with her decision, he begins to think she's a witch and vows to ruin her life.

On his next sermon, Greeshawn reveals Benjamin's death and blames it on Mahalia, claiming that her witchcraft brought about the monsters in the forest to kill him. Fortunately, Mahalia and even Greeshawn's mother, Angelica, point out numerous contradictions in his story and thus the entire colony doesn't buy Greeshawn's narrative. Frustrated, Greeshawn resolves to lure in some monsters of his army to the colony, have them cause some destruction and death, and then "rescue" the colony with his followers, while framing this attack as something that Mahalia brought. Using some enslaved forest children as bait and getting some of them killed, the plan works, but Mahalia, recognizing the plan, flees the colony. Now hailed as a hero, Greeshawn solidifies his control over the colony, but is still enraged that he can't find Mahalia anywhere. Seeing her as a potential threat and because she slighted his ego, he has his followers kidnap Jaralath, beat him, and force him to become the new leader of Greeshawn's army, telling him that if he finds Mahalia first, he'll let him spare her. Recognizing that becoming a leader of a traveling army is the best chance of finding Mahalia, he reluctantly accepts, in which he's forced to lead brutal raids on villages and small towns under the alias "Bloodletter." Greeshawn also begins an abusive relationship with Angelica, where he keeps his mother under house arrest and sometimes even binds her by her wrists and ankles.

Some years later, Greeshawn's destruction of villages and enslavement becomes more frequent than ever, while also continuing to impose cannibalism on his slaves and prisoners, in addition to forcing the citizens of Awesiaki to do so as well. However, he gets suspicious of the colony; he's been noticing that many of them have been abandoning some of their jobs to go to a secret meeting, so he looks into their activities. He finds out that there's actually a growing resistance movement in the colony, led by Erik's daughter, Edith. He has all of the people arrested, in which twenty-seven of them are publicly executed and the rest are beaten and imprisoned. Finally having enough of Greeshawn's crimes, Erik tries to attack him, but he's easily subdued and, along with the other prisoners, sentenced to a place in the mine called the Pit, where they are tortured. For Edith and her mother, Anya, they are exiled from the colony. Meanwhile, when Jaralath and Mahalia send a combined force of Spanish and British soldiers to help them, Greeshawn has his forces slaughter the soldiers and capture the survivors, including Jaralath.

Jaralath and the other prisoners are brought to the colony to stand trial, where Greeshawn manipulates the trial to reveal Jaralath's crimes when he served as "Bloodletter" without revealing that Greeshawn was the one who forced him to commit such crimes. Angelica, unable to simply turn a blind eye to her son's crimes, curses and disowns Greeshawn, while one of the soldiers, Captain Juan Paolo Sanchez, tries to assassinate Greeshawn with a knife. Erik, who was pulled out of the mines after he seemingly learned his lesson, tries to help, but Greeshawn manages to decapitate Sanchez and overpower Erik, punishing him to be taken back to the Pit. Greeshawn decides to punish Jaralath and Angelica by tying them to a tree, cutting them, and leaving them to die when winter arrives.

Unfortunately for him at least, Mahalia and Edith arrive with an army of Forest people, animals, and even some monsters from the Devourer, who's grown dissatisfied with how Greenshawn has weakened the monsters he's provided and failed to breed them properly, in which he'd force the monsters to breed hybrid offspring that are much weaker and more sickly than the previous generation. During the fight, Greenshawn orders his forces to kill the opposing army and later tries to personally kill Jaralath in the mines when he goes there to rescue Erik. Ultimately, Greenshawn gets both of his legs crippled during the battle and gets left at the mercy of the hybrid creatures he tried to breed and starve, whom devour him all at once.

Does He Have Any Mitigating Qualities or Freudian Excuse?

Despite his claims of spreading the word of God, it's clear that this is a front to dominate and take from others, given his life philosophy. He also has no care for anyone, not even his own parents or his Only Friend, Erik. As for a Freudian Excuse, he did communicate with the Devourer and that could suggest that he was corrupted by it, but this is later revealed to not be the case, as he was malicious even before he met the Devourer. Essentially, the Devourer's advice to him gave him the motivation to act out on his more savage qualities, not necessarily corrupted him.

Does He Meet the Heinousness Standard?

As for heinousness, he's got two competitors: the Chieftain from The Red Maiden: Grace's Story and the Devourer. That said, Greeshawn is probably the worst of them, as he orders raids on villages to either slaughter or enslave its populace and tortures numerous characters. As for the Devourer, it's implied that he's a malicious monster with apocalyptic plans, but 1) he's higher on the resource scale than Greeshawn and 2) he doesn't really have any concrete crimes to compete with Greeshawn and, like I said, his apocalyptic plans are really only hinted at. He also stands out from current qualifier, the Chieftain, because he causes even more collateral damage. Speaking of the Chieftain, I'd say he's still safe, as his mutilation of wives is unique enough to stand out.

Final Verdict

What do you guys think?

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#230745: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:51:10 AM

[tup]Alexander & Greeshawn

[up][up][up]Great, now I want to make a CM named something like Swizzlepop Dandelion or some saccharine shit.

Edited by nwotyzal on Sep 30th 2020 at 11:52:18 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#230746: Sep 30th 2020 at 11:57:44 AM

Yea to there, Unknown, great job!

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#230747: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:01:26 PM

Yes to Alexander and Greeshawn.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#230748: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:02:57 PM

[up][up] Thank you, Lightysnake. smile

[down] I'm honestly not sure either. Greeshawn would probably be grouped together in a tree with the Chieftain, but I'm not sure what to call the duology as a whole.

Edited by DrUnknown on Sep 30th 2020 at 12:11:09 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#230749: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:08:34 PM

Yes to Greeshaw. How will we group him and the other dude?

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#230750: Sep 30th 2020 at 12:17:16 PM

[tup] to Asavar Kul, Mr. Worthington and Julius Pickering, Moires Baskerville, Emperor Kurr, Mortimer, Carl Henderson, Atilla the Hun, Bob Barbas, Greg Harper, Alexander and Greeenshawn Chase


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