During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Drax's plan in the book is smaller-scale than in the film; simply wiping out London will do. I think that's still worse than "converting" a lesbian, especially since Fleming apparently believed lesbianism is just a form of Playing Hard to Get... or something.
Other strange things Fleming believed: telepathy exists, octopi are homicidal, and you can keep great white sharks and giant squids in captivity for indefinite periods.
edited 20th Mar '14 6:51:08 PM by HamburgerTime
Koreans are the most evil and treacherous people on earth and can be paid in cats to eat, every black person in the world is in on an evil scheme, breeding black people and Asians will result in a race of evil supermen...
That's Fleming.
One final proposition to round off the Mignola trio:
Who Is She and what does she do?
Nimue of the Hellboy series. Nimue is the ancient, long dead witch resurrected by blood magic to read the Fae in the Wild Hunt. Nimue is vicious, vindictive and cruel in contrast to most of the others, and is known as The Queen of Blood. In her past, she betrays Merlin, dooming Camelot, and trapping the wizard in a grave for thousands of years. When Nimue returns, she launches a purge of every witch in England as payback for imprisoning her in the first place. Ambassadors from the other fae arrive, and Nimue, even when they're willing to fight WITH her...orders them murdered as to brook no rivals, and to use the cut-free hearts to make her a crown worthy of the goddess of war.
Nimue purges everything amongst her own races that could stand against her and marshals everyone else into an army to exterminate mankind utterly. We see a glimpse of the future Nimue means to make: mountains of bones and oceans of blood.
When she's defeated by Hellboy after being possessed by the Ogdru Jahad and manifesting as their dragon avatar, The Seven Who Are One and the Eldritch Abomination Big Bad of the Hellboy verses, Nimue has enough time to form herself again as she dies and spitefully tears Hellboy's heart out to drag him to hell and eternal torment with her.
She's the worst villain in the series on her tier of power. Quite easily.
edited 20th Mar '14 7:10:46 PM by Lightysnake
I liked Live and Let Die a lot, but the Values Dissonance was narmtacular as was the random octopus attack.
Anyway, the point is I'll be back here to give y'all the bullet on Drax when I'm done.
edited 20th Mar '14 7:03:16 PM by HamburgerTime
Hmm...the most seen villains of Hellboy would likely be Rasputin, whose goal is to awaken the Ogdru Jahad, Baba Yaga who wishes to rule Russia and get her revenge on Hellboy for shooting out her eye...there are others like the Nazi scientists (yeah, Nimue's worse than Those Whacky Nazis) and the goddess Hecate (who's actually destroyed to make room for Nimue)
The Ogdru Jahad are a bit...inscrutable. Needless to say, though, Nimue has all of the others beat handily. A lot of the villains have redeeming qualities, too. Baba Yaga will honor her word, Rasputin genuinely believes the Ogdru Jahad will create a new perfect world, and some of the other villains have loved ones.
edited 20th Mar '14 8:00:06 PM by Lightysnake
Was Lord Wolfram from Ookami no Kuchi: Wolfsmund supposed to have a rewrite?
I'm thinking that Apep/Apophis from Egyptian Mythology should be disqualified. It's horrible, yes. But it's also Made of Evil. It's very purpose for existing is to cause destruction and suffering. It couldn't be good even if it wanted to. This lack of true moral agency is, for me at least, a disqualifying factor.
Counter-points?
I've never heard that Apep was Made of Evil.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanWell, just as long as Apep enjoys committing evil, he can qualify. If he's something like a Generic Dooms Day Villain, he can be cut if he has no real goals other than destruction and pain.
I just Google searched it:
From touregypt.net
There is no evidence of this god prior to the Middle Kingdom. He seems to have come into existence in the Egyptian mind during the troubled times just after the pyramid age. Most of the god's mythology seems to have been developed mostly during the New Kingdom in funerary texts. There are various accounts of this malevolent force, but overall, as the sun god made his nightly voyage through the underworld and each morning as the solar barque was about to emerge into the daylight, it was attacked by the great serpent whose terrifying roar echoed through the darkness. The serpent was said to hinder the passage of the solar barque by means of its coils which are described as "sandbanks", and also by gorging the waters of the underworld river in order to attempt to strand the barque of Re. Apophis was sometimes equated with Seth, the god of chaos, yet the nature of Apophis seems to have always been dark and threatening, while Seth could at times be beneficial. In some texts, Seth was even enlisted by the sun god in order to defeat the serpent. According to some mythologies, Apophis hypnotized Re and all of his entourage who sailed with him, with the exception of Seth, who resisted the serpent's deadly stare and repulsed him with the thrust of a great spear.
However, in other accounts, Re's companions and even the dead themselves, who could transform themselves into a form of the god, Shu, were involved in this cyclical battle for the survival of creation and order. Most notably, in the Book of Gates, Isis, Neith and Serket, together with other minor deities and some forms of monkey helped capture the monster with magical nets. Afterwards, he was restrained by deities including the earth god Geb and the sons of Horus, who cut his body into pieces, though each night he is revived to attack once more. In fact, in some myths, the sun god is encircled or swallowed by the serpent who later disgorges him as a metaphor of rebirth and renewal. Apophis, like Seth, was also associated with various frightening natural events such as unexplained darkness such as solar eclipse, storms and earthquakes. Hence, he was always an underlying threat to the very stability of the cosmos. Apophis is usually depicted in funerary texts and other settings as a great serpent, sometimes with tightly compressed, spring-like coils to emphasize his vast size. He is sometimes described as being over sixteen meters in length, with the first section of his body made of flint. He is usually shown being restrained, dismembered or in the process of being destroyed, often by multiple knives. In the tomb of Ramesses VI in the Valley of the Kings on the West Bank at Thebes (modern Luxor), Apophis is shown with twelve heads above its back representing those he has swallowed who are freed, if only briefly, when he is vanquished. Once Re has passed by the snake, the heads are destined to return into the body of Apophis until freed again, only briefly, the next night. In the private tombs and funerary papyri, and other scene of a different type is found where Re or Hathor appear in feline form in order to slay the serpent by cutting it up with a knife. The serpent is also symbolically portrayed in some temple scenes (at Dendera, Deir el-Bahri, Luxor and Philae). There, the king strikes a circular ball-like object which represents the evil "eye of Apophis". Apophis was, of course, never worshipped. However, he was included in various cults as a god or demon to be protected against. Various magical texts and rituals were produced to combat his effects upon the world. In fact, the text that Egyptologists refer to as the "Book of Apophis" was a collection of these magical spells dating to the late New Kingdom, though the best preserved example, known as the Bremner-Rhind Papyrus now in the British Museum, was produced in the 4th century BC. These are spells for the "overthrowing of Apophis", which provide protection from the powers symbolized by this deity or from snakes which could be viewed as minor yet dangerous manifestations of the monster. In the Late Period, these spells were read in temples daily to protect the world from the threat of the sun god's arch enemy. An associated ritual involved cutting into pieces and burning with fire a wax model of the serpent. Other rituals involved drawing a picture of the serpent in green on a new piece of papyrus, which was then sealed in a box and spat upon for times before being set on a fire. However, the deceased also needed to be protected from Apophis, and there were references to seventy-seven papyri-rolls which are given to a dead person by means of a spell, containing formulas for bringing Apophis to his place of execution where he is cut up, crushed and consumed by fire. As a final point, snakes were certainly not seen always a threatening creatures in ancient Egypt, as they seem to have been in other societies. In fact, they were frequently seen as protective and it was Mehen, another snake deity who helped protect the sun god in the underworld. Likewise, it was the cobra goddess Wadjet who helped protect the king.
Apep on the Papyrus of Hunefer Like Set, Apep was also associated with various frightening natural events such as unexplained darkness such as solar eclipse, storms and earthquakes. They were both linked to the northern sky (a place that the Egyptians considered to be cold, dark and dangerous) and they were both at times associated with Taweret, the demon-goddess. However, unlike Set he was always a force for evil and could not be reasoned with.
Apep is not mentioned by name until the Middle Kingdom, but depictions of large serpents on Predynastic pottery may relate to him or to any of the variety of serpent gods or demons who appear in early texts (such as the Pyramid Texts) as representatives of evil or chaos. However, the mythology surrounding him largely developed during the New Kingdom in funerary texts such as the Duat (or Amduat). During the Roman Period, he was called "he who was spat out" and considered to have been born of the saliva of the goddess Neith.
He was depicted as a huge serpent often with tightly compressed coils to emphasis his huge size. In funerary texts he is usually shown in the process of being dismembered in various ways. In a detailed depiction in the tomb of Ramesses VI twelve heads are painted above the head of the snake representing the souls he has swallowed who are briefly freed when his is destroyed, only to be imprisoned again the following night. In an alternative depiction inscribed in a number of tombs of private individuals Hathor or Ra is transformed into a cat who slices the huge serpent with a knife. The serpent was also represented by a circular ball, the "evil eye" of Apep, in numerous temple scenes.
Apep was known by many epithets, such as "the evil lizard", "the encircler of the world", "the enemy" and "the serpent of rebirth". He was not worshipped, he was feared, but was possibly the only god (other than The Aten during the Amarna period) who was considered to be all powerful. He did not require any nourishment and could never be completely destroyed, only temporarily defeated.
Apep led an army of demons that preyed on the living and the dead. To defeat this malevolent force a ritual known as "Banishing Apep" was conducted annually by the priests of Ra. An effigy of Apep was taken into the temple and imbued with all of the evil of the land. The effigy was then beaten, crushed smeared with mud and burned. Other rituals involved the creation of a wax model of the serpent which was ritually dismembered and the burning of a papyrus bearing an image of the snake. The "Book of Apophis" is a collection of magical spells from the New Kingdom which were supposed to repel or contain the evil of the serpent.
Apep was hated and feared by the Egyptians, but two of the Hyksos rulers chose his name as their coronation names (although they used a slightly different spelling).
Sounds like a Generic Doomsday Villain to me. It certainly doesn't seem like it has any goal beside "Destroy destroy destroy"
Back on the topic of Yuriev, and I know no one really cares, but I figured I'd just post an explanation of what happened to Yuriev from the Xenosaga III Perfect Guide. (this is a fan translation)
"<<The Reason that Humans Fear>>
Those who contact U-Do, and those who are contacted by U-Do, are implanted with fear at the core of their consciousnesses. In fact, both Dmitri Yuriev and Voyager ended up coming into contact with U-Do at the depths of the UMN, and in order to wipe away the resulting fear that was carved into the very depths of their souls, they caused numerous incidents, hatched countless plots, and after hundreds of years, produced so many victims that it's incalculable. What was it that frightened them to such an extent? That very fear was the vision of the collapse of the world, which became the basis for U-Do's observation of the lower domain. Those who saw the vision of the annihilation of all existence, shocked by its directness, become terrified by the ultimate negation of existence. They also learn the fear of absolute loneliness; of U-Do, the solitary existence who has absolutely no one else; of the complete collapse of the universe, which is carved into them from U-Do's lonely and imperishable existence, and which amounts to denial since the origin of existence; and of the annihilation of any and all existence. The fear of nothingness and loneliness. It has not changed even after thousands of years have passed since the era of ancient Lost Jerusalem; it is mankind's eternal nightmare. Many a wise man, holy man, and fool have challenged that nightmare, and all have failed. It is the fear that strikes at the core of consciousness not as a vague notion, but as an imminent pre-determined future. It is the fear that if the human frame cannot be transcended, there will be no escape. This is the true identity of the fear engraved by contact with U-Do."

Incidentally, neither henchman has been adapted to film yet.
edited 20th Mar '14 4:47:09 PM by HamburgerTime