During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
All this proves is that the Dissidia version doesn't count.
Actually, it does count. I think we were over that before. 012 only reinforced it. Having a single moment where his monstrous nature is played for tragedy does not negate anything else, nor does it make him actually a sympathetic character in the slightest.
I'm pretty sure lots of examples have been cut because they have moments where they're played tragically. They're only not cut if that tragic characteristic is shown to have vanished over time (i.e. Orochimaru), and those tend to be rare exceptions rather than the rule. However, since Dissidia's Kefka's moment was portrayed as an Alas, Poor Villain, I don't know how that's possible. I mean, a character's final moments being played sympathetically is the entire reason why we cut Envy from Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood, because in his last few seconds of life it was revealed he acted like a sadistic monster to humans because he envied humans for their ability to love and overcome tragedies. Nnoitra from Anime/Bleach was cut because his massive inferiority complex and Death Seeker nature were played for tragedy in his last moments. They seem pretty much the same as Dissidia!Kefka, he despairs because, in his eyes, nothing matters and destroying is the only thing that makes him feel validation. In any event, this has no baring on the Final Fantasy VI version of the character who I was talking about and who the entry is about. Since none of this apples to Six!Kefka, who's just a cackling, nihilistic sadist throughout the entire game, it doesn't need to be mentioned in his entry. If Dissidia!Kefka was voted a keep, a decision I'd disagree with if it did happen, then he'd need his own entry.
edited 8th Mar '14 9:38:43 AM by OccasionalExister
Re: Commodus: I suppose copying the YMMV entry to the Monster/Film page will do. That was actually the last revision of his original entry, but an earlier version that left out what Commodus did to Maximus' wife and son got added instead.
Re: Hard Rain: If there are no other comments on the sherrif and the deputy I'll request a cut in light of their possible redeeming traits.
I've been going through the horror anthology series Masters of Horror and there are a few potential keeps. This original entry was cut on page 422
of this thread (spoiler tags removed).
- Complete Monster: The disfigured prostitute in Imprint or rather, her "little sister".
- The series has several of them as antagonists such as Moonface, Jenifer, Mr. Chaney, Keziah Mason, and the combating murderers Walker and Wheeler.
The episodes in this series are all directed by a different horror director and have no continuity in between them, so I'll comment on each episode in regards to their villains and heinous standards.
Season 1
- "Incident On and Off a Mountain Road": The albino serial killer Moonface is a very likely keep. He kidnaps people off the road, cuts out their eyes with an electric drill and uses their crucified corpses to decorate his lawn. He keeps a crazy man captive for apparently years and even has several infant corpses still in their baby carriages stashed around his cabin. There is one instance where he hallucinates that one of the dead corpses talks to him, but it's to stop hurting her, which he gleefully ignores as he nails her to a cross. Overall he seems more than aware about his actions for a Silent Antagonist, he's just an utter sadist.
- "Dreams in the Witch-House": Keep the witch/Keziah Mason. This is based on an H. P. Lovecraft story by the same name where the witch has somewhat different motivations according to Villains Wiki, serving Nyalarthotep. In the episode she sacrifices babies for her rituals and uses her magic to force unwilling men to do so. The cops at the end find around 80 infant corpses in the walls of the house going back to the 1600s. Her motive is never explained in the episode to the point that it seems she is just doing it For the Evulz. She also uses rape by fraud against the protagonist by posing as his attractive neighbor and then having sex with him, apparently to mess with his mind for kicks.
- "Dance of the Dead": Cut. There's no villains who meet the heinous bar. The mother who gives away her daughter's corpse cares for the other one and the Robert Englund character doesn't do enough.
- "Jenifer": Cut. Jenifer is Ambiguously Human succubus who eats people and seduces men to cover for her. She's much too animalistic however to establish moral agency.
- "Chocolate": Cut. No one is heinous enough. The one villainess kills her gangster boyfriend and tries to kill the protagonist when he tracks her down to cover it up.
- "Homecoming": Cut. No one is heinous enough. Really heavy-handed satire, but the zombies have redeeming traits and the strawmen conservatives aren't evil enough.
- "Deer Woman": Cut. The Deer Woman is another succubus-like entity, but she also seems to operate on Blue-and-Orange Morality.
- "John Carpenter's Cigarette Burns": Cut. No villains who are heinous enough and the Artifact of Doom can't count.
- "The Fair-Haired Child": Cut. The monster has no moral agency and the evil husband and wife have redeeming traits, since they sacrifice teenagers to try to resurrect their dead son.
- "Sick Girl": Cut. The bug is just an animal and the bug woman has no moral agency.
- "Pick Me Up": Leaning towards cut. The two rival serial killers (Walker and Wheeler) in the episode are both heinous enough and lack any redeeming traits, but the episode tries to one-up itself by revealing another pair of serial killer who promptly murder the other two and decide to save the heroine for later. With so many candidates in a 60 minute episode I think it might fail due to being so dark that none of the villains can qualify.
- "Haeckel's Tale": Cut. Gross conclusion, but no one is heinous enough.
- "Imprint": Cut. There's no way anyone can count, including the sister mentioned above, because the episode ends on a Through the Eyes of Madness twist ending.
Season Two
- "The Damned Thing": Cut. The "Damned Thing" is a generic evil force manifesting as The Corruption. It seems to be a Made of Evil Eldritch Abomination, thus lacking moral agency.
- "Family": Cut. The Villain Protagonist is a perverted serial killer who collects people's corpses to create "the perfect family" by keeping the skeletons and interacting with them as if he's a loving family man. His hallucinations are so vivid that I doubt he has moral agency though; his victims actually "encourage" him to continue killing.
- "The V Word": Keep. The vampire Mr. Chaney is heinous enough. All the vampires in this episode suffer from Horror Hunger, but Mr. Chaney relishes in being able to kill people while the two teenage boys he turns do so against their will. He was a pedophile before he became a vampire as well, and although it's backstory there is enough creepy subtext (only turning teenage boys to become part of his pack, constantly caressing his new vamp minions, kissing a young girl he plans to kill) that I think it goes beyond Offstage Villainy. He slaughters a mortuary's entire staff, turns two teenage boys to become his followers and tries to force one of them to kills his young sister against his will. He fits every criterium.
- "Sounds Like": Cut. No Antagonist, just a main character slowly going crazy.
- "John Carpenter's Pro-Life": Cut. The fundamentalist father is a Well-Intentioned Extremist who loves his children while the demon father weeps over the corpse of its own half-human offspring.
- "Pelts": Cut. No one has any moral agency due to the curse on the raccoon pelts compelling them to kill.
- "The Screwfly Solution": Cut. The men who commit the Gendercide are manipulated by a hostile race of aliens, while the aliens themselves have Blue-and-Orange Morality.
- "Valerie on the Stairs": Cut. Ultimately no character has moral agency due to being fictional characters.
- "Right to Die": Cut. The vengeful spirit has redeeming traits for trying to avenge her own death.
- "We All Scream for Ice Cream": Cut. The undead Monster Clown of the episode was a genuine Friend to All Children in life and retarded to boot and only goes after the now grown-up guys who causes his death.
- "The Black Cat": Cut. The entire thing is just a figment of Edgar Allen Poe's imagination.
- "The Washingtonians": George Washington as a child-eating cannibal! There are no standouts however with an entire cult dedicated to dining on humans and groups obviously can't qualify.
- "Dream Cruise": Cut. The vengeful spirit in this episode is also trying to avenge her death by her murderous husband and the women he was cheating with.
In conclusion, most of the episodes's vilains fail on one of the criteria. I think Moonface, the witch and Mr. Chaney are keeps. Walker and Wheeler probably don't stand out enough.
edited 8th Mar '14 9:49:27 AM by Morgenthaler
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"Nice run down. I agree with all your decisions, keep the Evil Albino, the witch and the vampire, cut everyone else.
ACW, you really should research some of these if you have questions. Yeah, Griffin can't control the invisibility, that's why he wants a cure.
Also, I agree with Morgenthaler on the Masters of Horror entries. I distinctly remember how nasty Moonface was (incidentally, one of the few episodes worth a damn.) While Moonface is usually quiet beyond grunts, it seems he might be incapable of speech, but he has multiple sadistic gestures that indicate he knows exactly what he's doing.
Oh, and
Onm the Dissidia versions of Kefka. However, since the Emperor from FF 2 was brought up, DOES he fail the heinous standard? I'm finding that tough to believe
Editing the Ylva entry
- "Ylva Svensdotter from Röd måne ("Red Moon") by Swedish writer Elisabet Nemert wants her own brother to die in war so she can claim the right to his wife's farm. When he does die, she feigns sadness over it. She accuses her sister-in-law and her two maids of witchcraft after and since this is the 17th century, they're sentenced to death. Ylva also gladly planned for her brother's six year old daughter Indra to die as well, but Indra was rescued. When her daughter Maja lost her ability to speak from the shock of being flogged, Ylva actually accuses her of being a witch as well and has her sent to a family where she is raped and abused for many years. And when Indra returned to claim her mother's farm, Ylva accuses her niece of witchcraft. At this point, Ylva even loses the support of her husband, who had only obeyed her until then.
edited 8th Mar '14 10:07:36 AM by Lightysnake
Say, I had a question about Elliot Carver. He was voted a solid keep, but I learned that the novelization of the film gives some backstory to him and I'd like some consensus on whether or not it qualifies as a Freudian Excuse. It turns out Carver was the product of a one-night stand in Hong Kong between a British newspaper tycoon and a German prostitute; she died in childbirth and to avoid a scandal the tycoon pawned off his son onto a poor Chinese family and figured that would be the end of that. It wasn't. In fact, the whole reason Carver went into the media business in the first place was to humiliate and ultimately drive to suicide the father who abandoned him, which he succeeded in doing. What I'm iffy on in regards to whether or not this is a Freudian Excuse is whether or not it explains his actions in the movie. Sure, we know why he wanted his father dead, but how does that relate to trying to nuke China, having his wife killed when she rightfully snitched on him to the authorities, or all the other myriad things he does?
Opinions?
Even if it does, I'm not inclined to let something of dubious canon like that overwrite the film's. Unless it's in the film, I don't see a reason to count it personally.
Oh, cut those Medabots examples. I think I'll still vote to keep the Mage ones. OE did a good writeup for Marcus.
Cut Shiraz, but PM the adder and ask them to come here to expand. I also think the Stranglehold example may be a cut if nobody can expand. Been so long since I played it
I also agree with Morgenthaler and Lightysnake on the Masters of Horror examples.
On the subject of Elliot Carver, I remember that once someone brought up a novelization of Halloween (1978) where Michael Myers was revealed to be possessed by a demon or some bullshit, and it was decided that it shouldn't be taken into consideration. I think it should be the same here, just like we don't care about Offscreen Villainy, we shouldn't care about Freudian Excuses or Good Traits that are not actually present in the work.
edited 8th Mar '14 11:15:49 AM by Nithael
Doom?? I know Scar, and then this (and don't forget Lotso), but Doom?
edited 8th Mar '14 4:04:39 PM by ACW
Doom in question was given a back story in the graphic novel The Resurrection of Doom. In it, it claimed that Judge Doom's true name was Baron Von Rotten, and that he was an actor who got into an accident that resulted in slight brain damage. At that moment, Doom thought he really was a villain, and he began his crime spree. However, this graphic novel was written a year after the film was released, and, therefore, shouldn't be considered.
I got one to propose: The drug dealer turned serial killer in "Garbage" by Tyler the Creator
.
Just an ordinary drug dealer, he found joy and an addiction in murder after killing a guy for trespassing his territory. He keeps a number of victims alive in his house basement, rips out their arms and legs so that they wouldn't leave, and tortures them for his own amusement. It is also implied that he killed children or at least drugged them to the point where they are beyond saving.
as well.
In other news, I decide to read YMMV.The Vampire Diaries and find this:
DO NOT ADD COMPLETE MONSTER EXAMPLES WITHOUT CONSULTING THE CLEANUP THREAD!
Replaced with this:
- Complete Monster: While most characters have enough of a sympathetic backstory, the murderer that Stefan turns in "My Brother's Keeper" does not. He expresses no regret other than getting caught which is why Stefan decides to turn him into an Asshole Victim.
edited 9th Mar '14 7:44:15 AM by VeryMelon

I too had the impression that the original draft wasn't that long, compared to many other entries. But I don't know...