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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#225576: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:10:53 PM

Ah screw it. His boss might not count but a case could be made for this hatebale prick.

Whats the work?

"Chicago Crossover" is a three part crossover between chicago fire, chicago pd and law and order svu invlvoing th investigation into an interstate child pornography ring. Know heres the man in charge of operations albeit not the actual leader. This crossover is actually pretty good if uh not ligh hearted material.

Who is Bob Clinton ?

A creepy, slimy asshole played by mark h dold. Clinton helps to ferry children from youth centers into the ring bribing the gaurds into bringing them to him afer using his contacts with his boss whose a leader in child services getting ones that would fetch a price. Their he personally livestreams an even where pedophiles all around the world can send "recommendations " about what gross sex acts they want performed on said kids. This group is noted to have had dozens of victims who they break and torture and have been active for 15 years.

One of his victims was the half brother of Detective Erin Lindsay, who was forced by the gang to rape one of his friends on tape during one of these livestreams. Anyway Clinton has captured a new victim a young boy named Henry and has put a sadistic countdown where he torments him and threatens him as they count down to when the livestream is beginning. Anyway SVU and Chicago PD track him down and prevent him from beginning to rape the child. They hold him behind bars and he smugly declares that he won't tell them who his boss is unless he gets full immunity. They decide to just send him to rikers where his boss has him shanked.

Mitigating qualities?

Lol no for redeeming qualities. Dude likes hurting kids.

Alright so the big thing. Hes not actually the leader of the operation. That's the guy who runs social services and scouts out the victims but he is the guy in charge of the actual abuse that occurs. All that rape and torture is something he's doing and clearly likes it. Also the person in charge if getting kids to be abused from the youth centre by bribing the gaurds. Thats all him. Considering he's the rings second in command at minimum and th only member of the ring with actual characterisation other then his boss I'd pass him.

Heinous standard'

Think so. Not super familiar with SVU compared to the other law and order series but this sounds uniquely depraved entough going off entries from their. He molests and tortured children over hours on tape in horrifying ways and does it for fun. And he's done it dozens of victims (we see pictures of how many he's done this to) and has done this for 15 years that many just break. We also see him torment his victims beforehand and being stoped before he begins raping his next victim. So offstage villainy isn't an issue.

Conclusion?

Uh up to you

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#225577: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:11:07 PM

Crazy thought, but with that terrible Last Airbender movie currently on Netflix, does anyone want to see if anyone counts in it, cause I’ll do it if nobody else want to suffer through that abomination.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#225578: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:13:18 PM

I don't remember any one counting from memory. If you want to torture yourself I guess it's okay but I really wouldn't recommend that film to anyone.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
M1st3rSt3v3 Since: Jul, 2017 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#225579: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:18:40 PM

So I know this is weird ask this after so long but did my Dollmaker quote and George Washington quote make the CM quotes page? Cause I was sure those two got enough votes. here's the quotes I'm talking about.

The Dollmaker: You were almost there, almost free from what you fear. You could have been cured. You could have forgotten!
Alice: Abandon the memory of my family?
The Dollmaker: They are dead, and you should be too.
Alice: You misbegotten abomination! Murderer! You blood sucking parasite! The damage you've done to children - the abuse!
The Dollmaker: I provide a service. In the great and awful metropolis, appetites of all sorts must be gratified...

" I will skin your children and eat them. Upon finishing, I shall fashion utensils out of their bones."
— The Letter of G.W., Masters of Horror, The Washingtonians.

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#225580: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:19:19 PM

[up][up] Well, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone either, unless they want to hear mispronunciations of characters name, watch incredibly slow bending, and acting that is on par with Ride to Hell for a hour and a half. But very well, I’ll check it out, and see if we can find a surprise keeper like we did with Dragon Ball Evolution... This Is Gonna Suck.

Edited by Michealthehero21 on Aug 18th 2020 at 2:19:45 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#225581: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:19:45 PM

Sure to Bob. What's the leader's name, and what happens to him?

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#225582: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:20:15 PM

[tup] to Bob Clinton.

[up][up] I watched the movie last month (I was bored and had nothing better to do) and no one keeps. Ozai is removed from most his crimes in the show and the hinted effects Zhao could bring by killing the moon spirit are even more vague than in the show. So don't waste your time on that movie and watch something better.

Edited by DrUnknown on Aug 18th 2020 at 2:26:07 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#225584: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:22:47 PM

Yes to Bob.

Michael: I don't remember anyone counting, but then again I only watched the horrible film once. If you want to go ahead, you would earn my sympathy.

Edited by Bullman on Aug 18th 2020 at 4:24:30 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#225585: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:23:31 PM

Michael : Could you please vote on my ep

ACW: ted something. He comes close to counting. But Benson implored the dude to give up his last victim to safety as it would at least allow him to have some rest of mind. And he did do it so.....

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#225586: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:27:01 PM

Well, according to Dr Unknown, it apparently wouldn't be worth it, so dodged a bullet there.

Oh, and [tup] Bob.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#225587: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:27:05 PM

[tup] to Bob

@Michael

I was planning to do it when I can go on Netflix in September(My dad didn't pay the Wi Fi bill sense were moving soon so we don't have streaming services, I can use my phone as its separate)

Things are really about to get Fun around here
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
M1st3rSt3v3 Since: Jul, 2017 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#225593: Aug 18th 2020 at 2:37:42 PM

Easy "yes" to the child pornographer.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#225594: Aug 18th 2020 at 3:00:23 PM

[tup] Bob.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#225596: Aug 18th 2020 at 3:18:31 PM

Here's a possible villain of the week candidate I found from a show on Netflix, which I am very suprised no one discussed yet.

What is the work?

Timeless is a 2016 NBC series about an unlikely trio of time-travellers(whom we'll call the Lifeboat Team). When criminals led by Garcia Flynn steal a time-machine to change the past, our heroes — Dr. Lucy Preston (Abigail Spencer), a history professor, Sergeant 1st Class(and eventual love interest for Lucy) Wyatt Logan (played by Matt Lanter of Clone Wars fame; which means there's a bit of Friendly Fandoms overlap with Star Wars, a US Army Green Beret, and Rufus Carlin (Malcolm Barrett), a genius engineer who helped design the time machine — must travel back in time to protect history as we know it.

In their original mission, they tried to prevent Flynn from making the Hindenburg disaster worse. They however end up changing history and saving everyone on the Hindenburg. As a result, Lucy's sister Amy no longer exists and Lucy herself is engaged to a man she never knew. She vows to restore the original timeline and get her sister back. Eventually Lucy, Flynn and Wyatt soon learn, Flynn plans to rewrite American history, and that each of them has a connection to his plan, as well as the mysterious organization that funded the machine's development, whom serve as the overarching villains for the series.

Now, Flynn himself does not qualify. He does some really messed up things such as trying to kill everyone on the Hindenburg, working with horrific political movements such as the Nazis and Neo-Confederates to destroy America, trying to get the moon landing sabotaged and ensuring the astronauts die, and siccing our candidate on our heroes. However, he himself has a legitimate reason for doing these things, his family was killed by the mysterious organization that funded the machine's development and he wants revenge. He makes it clear the reason he does things like helping the Nazis in WWII is because he wants to destroy Rittenhouse not because he hates Jews or something, and believes he has done too many horrible things in pursuit of revenge to go back to his family. If anything he's closer to a Magnificent Bastard then this trope(obviously crossovers like Darkrai exist, but Flynn's NOT a CM), only kept from Magnificent Bastard by the fact that he may be genuinely insane, is willing to kill children to get what he wants, and has a mental breakdown in episode 10(there is however a possible qualifier I could see in the future for MB).

As for the mysterious organization, Rittenhouse. I haven't gotten to the episodes where they show up but most of their actions, from what I've researched, while can be horrible(ie: trying to make sure women don't vote) falls a bit into the box of generic take-over-the-world villainy combined with cliche generic evil plots and their motives and members don't get too much characterization outside of that or have redeeming qualities. Their founder, David Rittenhouse, is a Evil Reactionary slaveowner and hints towards raping Lucy when he captures her in episode 10, but he does seem to have some affection for his grandson and his actions I feel go into Hate Sink territory at most. Rittenhouse in general having little characterization outside of "muhahahahahahaha take over the world" and their members not doing anything really horrific has much to do with the show being very short-lived(it got canned after 26 eps spanning 2 seasons and had to be concluded with a movie finale) rather than any bad writing on the part of the However, I could reassess once I've watched Season 2 and find someone who could qualify.

So our candidate is a Villain of the Week character appearing in Episode 11, The World's Columbian Exposition. In the conclusion of Episode 10, Flynn kidnaps Lucy after failing to kill David Rittenhouse's grandson in 1780. He apparently has a weird obsession with Lucy because a Lucy from the future warned him about Rittenhouse and he in turn hoped they'd join forces(fun fact: given the Friendly Fandoms with Star Wars, there's a quite a bit of people associated with the Reylo fandom whom also also shipped them together due to similar dynamics rather than Lucy with Wyatt). He kidnaps Lucy to force her into helping him, taking her to 1893 during the Chicago World's Fair with the intent to use her to get close to Harry Houdini, whom he seeks to blackmail to find a way into a meeting to kill Thomas Edison, Henry Ford and J. P. Morgan, all of whom are Rittenhouse members. When Wyatt and Rufus arrive in 1893 to save Lucy, he tricks them into going to the World's Fair Hotel in Chicago, which is secretly a death trap run by our candiate, a serial killer, the very first criminal to be called a serial killer, with said serial killer given orders by Flynn to kill Rufus and Wyatt, and potentially Lucy if she refuses to cooperate.

Who is he?

H.H(initial for Henry Howard) Holmes was America's first documented serial killer. He runs a hotel full of death traps, such as trapdoors, acid vats, and torture racks. When Wyatt and Flynn go into the hotel, they meet architect Sophia Hayden and a guest named George Henry. They then get knocked unconscious with gas and trapped inside one of the isolation chambers, which is airtight, soundproof, and can eventually kill people due to oxygen deprivation and has chains designed to hold people.

Wyatt assures the people in the isolation chamber that they will escape and reunite with their families. Hayden finds a spalling brick which Wyatt is able to make a hole in. He cries for help, and Lucy Preston and Harry Houdini, who has thwarted Flynn's plans to kill his targets on his own, hear the cry and rescue Wyatt, Rufus, Hayden, and Henry.

Wyatt and Lucy then search for Holmes to bring him to justice. Wyatt forces the hotel's caretaker, Pat Quinlan, to lead Wyatt to Holmes, only for that trail to turn up cold. Lucy, looking at the pictures in the caretaker's office, finds various portraits and has the realization that George Henry is H.H. Holmes. At that moment Holmes captures Lucy and puts her in a torture chamber.

Worried about being found out by the authorities, Holmes tries to kill both himself and Lucy by flooding the torture chamber with poisonous gas. However, Lucy uses her historical knowledge of what Holmes did as well as her knowledge of his personality and spiritualist views to pose as a psychic and get Holmes to release her, promising power and wealth if he does. Wyatt and Rufus find where Holmes had Lucy hidden. Holmes, in an attempt to defend himself, says that if Wyatt doesn't kill him, that he'll tell the families of all his victims what he did to them to give their families closure. Lucy then states, when Wyatt asks, that H. H. Holmes never does anything like this or even wants to, but rather that he's trying to save his ass by conning others with false promises. With this knowledge, Wyatt subsequently kills Holmes.

Heinousness Standard?

Pretty much the worst character in the series actions wise. Now Flynn does some really messed up things to get revenge on Rittenhouse such as trying to start a worse Hindenburg explosion, working with the Nazis in WW 2, trying to get the moon landing sabotaged, trying to ensure the Soviets win the Cold War, trying to start a Neo-Confederate uprising by using John Wilkes Booth to assassinate Lincoln's entire cabinet with him, but he has more resources and a time machine, and his actions mostly serve a purporse and aren't really excessively cruel with the arguable exception of trying to kill a young David Rittenhouse, and even that is driven by his insanity and warped worldviews than anything.

With the far less resources Holmes has(control to a hotel complex) and the way he kills people(using gas to knock people out and getting them chained in airtight rooms where can't call for help and eventually breathe to death, or by trapping them in cramped boxes), I think this is very unique enough for the series, especially since the series is rather lighthearted. While Flynn apparently reached out to him and told him to deal, he was like that beforehand as seen by Rufus finding human remains in Holmes hotel

While I can't see someone like him qualifying in a long running police procedural where everything is played very seriously(yeah this is a reference to Criminal Minds and how it's hard for anyone to really qualify there due to how jacked the heinousness standard is), given that the show is rather lighthearted and the overarching villains in Rittenhouse are rather tame(at least from what I've researched and heard about what they do in the show, if I watch to that point I will see if my opinion can be reassessed regarding any of it's leaders), I'd say he stands out as especially vile.

Redeeming Qualities?

None. It's mentioned that his father beat him, but in this context it dosen't justify being a depraved serial killer. He claims he has a 8 year old son and later claims that he will confess all his crimes so his victims receive closure. However, as Lucy states when she talks about what she knows of him, this is all an act. Holmes abandoned his family, murdered multiple women, and is a psycopath that loves to con people and lie off his ass to escape punishiment. He does worry about what happens if he kills the Lifeboat team but that's all because he's worried about getting caught.

Other mitigating factors?

He claims that he was "born a devil", however we see no reason to believe this is genuine mental psychopathy or moral agency impediments driving fourth his actions.

Also while he dosen't really have too much character, I feel he has enough to qualify. He himself gloats that the reason he trapped himself in with Wyatt, Flynn and Hayden is because he loves to see people expressing fear as their life comes to a close. So I feel that establishes enough character for him.

Verdict

I'd say H.H. Holmes stands out as particularly vile for a rather light series despite only appearing in a single episode and has enough character to be presented as an utterly depraved murderer. [tup] to him.

Edited by xie323 on Aug 18th 2020 at 3:39:36 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#225598: Aug 18th 2020 at 3:21:53 PM

[tup]Holmes

Being fair didn't Holmes kill like a hundred people in real life. He was actually the inspiration for one of the guys who doe count in the criminal minds page.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#225599: Aug 18th 2020 at 3:24:10 PM

[tup]Clinton & Holmes

As for Last Airbender (saw it as a kid and loved it... I was a really dumb kid), I don't think anyone really counts, they all just do the things they did in canon (only sucky) and no real changes (except for them being dull as a brick)

BTW, I while ago I remember someone wanting to do the Film version of Count Olaf, so could one count if they planned to possibly expand the character but that never came to fruition.

Edited by nwotyzal on Aug 18th 2020 at 3:24:15 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#225600: Aug 18th 2020 at 3:24:46 PM

[up][up] According to himself, 29 persons, according to recent investigations, around to 200 woman via Deadly traps, which uh, unique. All of this in six months.

I think he could actually count in Criminal Minds?

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 18th 2020 at 5:26:22 AM

Watch me destroying my country

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