During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
OE, is there some happy medium? The rewrite's slightly Wall of Text-y. As for MK, the later games actually DO have a story.
I like the Moriarty re-write. I think it's okay for an entry to be slightly Wall-Of-Texty if the villain in question has a large rap sheet, and the entry sticks to describing their actions, without grave dancing.
On Ganondorf, doesn't Majora make him look like a nice guy by comparison? I don't know if I can support adding him. Also, I don't know much about the Zelda mythos, but isn't it always the same Ganondorf, in every game? Wouldn't that disqualify him for being sympathetic in WW? Or did Skyward Sword change something? I didn't play it.
edited 2nd Mar '14 12:08:30 PM by Camberf
Hey everyone, this is Kurtis. You've probably never heard of me before, but just for clarity's sake, I'm the one who originally added Ganondorf as a Complete Monster to the Ocarina of Time YMMV subpage. First of all, I'm glad that I was finally directed to a forum for reviewing the inclusion of certain entries in this particular trope. I had been under the impression that this Wiki was largely unstructured as of this time, and did not have very many centralized discussions about anything of the sort. I'd imagine there are other pages for different tropes, in particular the ones that are bound to cause controversy (like this one, for instance).
Anyways, for what it's worth, my stance is to include Ganondorf on the YMMV page for Ocarina of Time - not the whole franchise. I don't know if that's permissible, or if TV Tropes generally takes into account all other games in the series before coming to any sort of conclusion when assessing the case of a specific game. But if we're looking at Ganondorf's portrayal and actions as they pertain to Ocarina of Time, then I think he qualifies. Read through my original posting for a detailed explanation of his atrocities:
- Complete Monster: Although subsequent games in the series have attempted to vindicate Ganondorf somewhat with his back story, in Ocarina of Time he was cast in a wholly negative light from start to finish. There really isn't anything good about this man. In the first part of the game, he relentlessly pursues the three spiritual stones scattered around Hyrule in order to enter the Sacred Realm. His methods include cursing the Great Deku Tree and Lord Jabu-Jabu (the former dying of his ailment), blocking off the Gorons' primary food supply in Dodongo Cavern, and forging an insincere alliance with the King of Hyrule to assuage any suspicions he may have. Link acquires all three stones, but his return to Hyrule Market is offset by Ganondorf in hot pursuit of Princess Zelda and Impa. He has evidently staged a deadly attack on the castle. After Link enters the Temple of Time and pulls the Master Sword from its pedestal, he is frozen in place for seven years. Setting foot outside the temple as an adult for the first time and seeing what Ganondorf has done to Hyrule is jarring. The once lively Market has since become a grim, desolate ghost town infested with Redeads. Kokiri Forest is teeming with monsters, Zora's Domain is encased in ice, Lake Hylia has been drained, and an ancient demon sealed beneath Kakariko Village is unleashed. But the worst of it all takes place on Death Mountain. Not content with the state of terror he has already created, Ganondorf revives an ancient dragon named Volvagia and imprisons every single one of the Gorons within their own Fire Temple. His plan is to feed the entire Goron race to the creature as a warning to anyone else who dares oppose his reign. Yes, you've heard correctly - Ganondorf intends to commit genocide against the Gorons for absolutely no reason! Even his own people don't respect him. Upon meeting the Gerudo tribe's second-in-command Nabooru inside the Spirit Temple as a child, she immediately makes a point of differentiating herself from her supposed master: "With his followers, he stole from women and children, and he even killed people!"
(Note: I altered the link from "infested with redeads" from Zombie Apocalypse to Everything'sDeaderwithZombies; I also added "supposed" before "master" in the last sentence of the paragraph.)
Let's pretend for a moment that TV Tropes existed back in... 1999. You know, just for argument's sake. It's prior to the release of The Wind Waker, and way prior to Skyward Sword. If we were having this discussion in 1999, I have no doubt that there would be unanimous support for the inclusion of Ganondorf. I'm not sure how the Evil Overlord trope is mutually exclusive from being a Complete Monster, assuming the character himself is heinous enough by the standard of the story, and not just a cackling fool in a dark castle. Ganondorf kills people, he destroyed the entire land of Hyrule, plans to commit genocide against at least one race just to make an example of them, and is presented as having absolutely no redeeming qualities.
edited 2nd Mar '14 2:22:05 PM by Kurtis
@Camberf - So it doesn't matter if I'm only adding the Complete Monster trope to a single game, as opposed to an entire franchise?
Can Ganondorf not be considered an exceptional case (akin to the Joker from Batman)?
My trepidation is the sympathetic backstory from WW is clearly not applicable in Ocarina. His whole "I did this for the Gerudo people" is utterly absent. Ganondorf doesn't show any care for them, and leaves them to rot in the desert with a healthy dose of oppression. He gets ample dialogue where he discusses only his own power and ascension, without any mention of better intentions.
Zelda continuity is so weird, we should really handle individual things like that one on one.
Does WW take place after Oo T? If so, it could indicate that he started to care for his people in between the two games.
With the Joker, it's mostly Depending on the Writer that's being enforced.
As noted, Ganondorf doesn't have any sufficiently heinous acts outside of OOT at best. I'm in agreement with him being a possible contender, once we properly list his crimes in a bullet list so they're faster and easier to read. As of now, a wall of text is a lot. That'll be good later for the final entry(possibly smaller overall, but eh).
Shadow?I guess since there's no clear continuity in the Lo Z, Ganondorf may count if we mention that, and we say that his personality Depends On The Writer. How does he stack up against Majora, anyway? That game, at least, is a direct sequel.
edited 2nd Mar '14 12:48:41 PM by Camberf
On depending on the writer with a CM, isn't there a rule that states that if a lot of incarnations of the original villain are qualified as complete monsters, then, ultimately the original character is regarded as one? Too give an example of what I mean, in almost every version of the Joker in the Batman franchise, he is labeled as a complete monster. However, there are some versions of the Joker are disqualified because they would either be portrayed as harmless villains, or campy. All together, the Joker as a whole is considered a complete monster because of how many incarnations of the original Joker are confirmed as one. Another example would be with Lex Luthor, and he was disqualified because he was normally portrayed as simply a megalomaniac and not going as far as the Joker was. So overall, wouldn't there need to be many incarnations of the original character that are confirmed as C Ms in order for the original character to be collectively labeled as one?
- Complete Monster: Morton figures out that Roberts would do anything for the men on the Reluctant. So when they get into port where liberty (shore leave) was expected, Morton cancels liberty and then uses it to force a deal from Roberts: No more letters asking for transfers, no more talking back to the Captain in front of the crew, and Roberts tells no one about the deal. Morton knows Roberts can't refuse, and that Roberts won't go back on his word.
- And afterward, Morton uses Roberts' agreed-upon silence to trick the crew into thinking Roberts is angling for a promotion instead of sticking with them. The bastard.
Umm... how is this supposed to be heinous?
- Harry Warden. In the original, his actions made sense, as he only killed the two men he blamed for the cave-in. In the remake however, he is shown to be a cruel bully who taunts Tom right before the explosion, then murders his fellow trapped miners simply for the selfish notion that by killing them, HE won't have to worry about them using up the oxygen in the caved in tunnel. Oh, and murdering and dismembering an entire hospital full of people after he wakes up.
I vaguely remember bringing this one up but I can't find any discussion on it. Thoughts?
- Morton just seems like a dick, but fails the baseline heinous standard.
- As for MBV, I saw it in theaters, but can't remember if he counts.
- As for Ganon, it seems he has either no personality besides standard villain, Made of Evil (Skyward Sword), sympathetic villain (Wind Waker), or possible candidate (OOT). I'm not sure what to think...
@22546: But couldn't it also be possible he went through some form of Motive Decay? From what he says in WW, I could see him being a Well-Intentioned Extremist originally who wanted to get the gerudo out of the desert until he eventually obsessed with power for its own sake. If that's the case, years of introspection could have been enough to make him regret not helping them as says was originally his intention.
edited 2nd Mar '14 2:08:18 PM by OccasionalExister
OK, so I think we can agree that if Ganondorf is to be included on the Ocarina of Time YMMV (which is still a matter of contention), the entry itself should be shortened for comfort.
So how about this?
- Complete Monster: Although subsequent games in the series have attempted to vindicate Ganondorf somewhat with his back story, in Ocarina of Time he was cast in a wholly negative light from start to finish. There really isn't anything good about this man. In the first part of the game, he relentlessly pursues the three spiritual stones scattered around Hyrule in order to enter the Sacred Realm. His methods include cursing the Great Deku Tree and Lord Jabu-Jabu (the former dying of his ailment), blocking off the Gorons' primary food supply in Dodongo Cavern, and forging a fake alliance with Hyrule to mitigate any suspicions they may have. Link acquires all three stones, but his return to Hyrule Market is offset by Ganondorf in hot pursuit of Princess Zelda and Impa, following an attack he carried out against the castle. Seeing what Ganondorf has done to Hyrule after seven years of being frozen in time is jarring. The once lively Market has since become a desolate ghost town infested with Redeads. Kokiri Forest is filled with monsters, Zora's Domain is encased in ice, Lake Hylia has been drained, and an ancient demon sealed beneath Kakariko Village is unleashed. But the worst of it all takes place on Death Mountain. Not content with the state of terror he's created, Ganondorf revives an ancient dragon named Volvagia and imprisons every single one of the Gorons within the Fire Temple. His plan is to feed their entire race to the creature as a warning to anyone else who dares oppose him. Yes, you've heard correctly - Ganondorf intends to commit genocide against the Gorons for absolutely no reason! Even his own people don't respect him. Upon first meeting Nabooru of the Gerudo tribe, she immediately makes a point of differentiating herself from her supposed master: "With his followers, he stole from women and children, and he even killed people!"
Is that short enough?
This revision notwithstanding a possible lack of consensus for the addition, of course.
edited 2nd Mar '14 2:25:58 PM by Kurtis
But couldn't it also be possible he went through some form of Motive Decay? From what he says in WW, I could see him being a Well-Intentioned Extremist originally who wanted to get the gerudo out of the desert until he eventually obsessed with power for its own sake. If that's the case, years of introspection could have been enough to make him regret not helping them as says was originally his intention.
From what we hear, his intent was always nothing more than power in OOT. Nobody ever mentions Ganondorf wanting to help the Gerudo, and the way he mistreats them? Plus with Nabooru, she never once indicates he was anything other than what he is.
Okay, there are three separate branching paths:
Path 1: after Ocarina, Ganondorf is sealed away. Later, Ganondorf escapes the seal, which forces the gods to cause the Great Flood. This causes the events of Wind Waker
Path 2: Ganondorf is sealed away. Link is sent back as a child (the Ocarina of Time ending) and prevents him from ever overthrowing Hyrule castle. As a result, he is captured and banished to the Twilight Realm. The events of Majora's Mask occur after. Later in history, Twilight Princess occurs. Ganondorf is killed here for good.
Path 3: Link is defeated and Zelda later seals Ganon away. All of this leads to the events of A Link to the Past. The events of both Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons then occur; which happens first is left ambiguous, as the two connecting games can be played in either order. The Oracle series is followed by the events of Link's Awakening. For a time, the Triforce is used by the Hyrulean monarchy, until the Triforce of Courage is sealed away and Princess Zelda is cursed into an eternal slumber, as described in The Adventure of Link's backstory. Later, the events of The Legend of Zelda occur, directly followed by the in-game events of The Adventure of Link.
If Ganondorf counts, it'd be timeline 2
Also, checking the Hyrule Historia, it seems the timelines diverge at Ocarina of Time. Zelda continuity is a topsy turvy mess and I'm not sure if we should take the games as very connected.
From what it's saying, one path of Ocarina leads to Twilight Princess while another leads to WW. The entry for TP is listed first and Ganondorf was explicitly destroyed there, while in WW, he had been sealed away there.
now, it seems clear that Path 1 began as a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but Paths 2 and 3 eventually underwent Motive Decay and lost this.
edited 2nd Mar '14 2:44:33 PM by Lightysnake
Okay, this may bear re-discussing Ganon, because previously we hadn't gotten the timeline straightened. Now that we know which version we're talking about, Wind Waker and anything besides Ocarina and Twilight Princess shouldn't count.
For sourcing, this is from the Hyrule Historia which gives the official timelines created by Eiji Aonuma.
So, here's the timeline: Ganondorf is born in the Gerudo desert. He's raised by the Twinrova sisters and ascends to leadership of the tribe. Eventually, he ingratiates himself to the King, plotting to steal the Triforce. When he manipulates Link into opening the pathway to it, he seizes it and becomes the ruler of Hyrule. Eventually, he is defeated by Link. Ganondorf is exiled, where he corrupts and takes over the Twilight Realm realm, leading to the events of Twilight Princess. At the conclusion of the game, he is killed once and for all by the future Link.
edited 2nd Mar '14 3:06:44 PM by Lightysnake
That Ganon counts. WW!Ganon and Demise Created!Ganon not so much.

Ganondorf is way too sympathetic in WW to come close. He's very flat in OOT and TP, but he might count in OOT due to his crimes. TP? Probably not. All he does is pretend to be a God to Zant, kidnap Zelda and temporarily control her, and kill a Sage after they tried to execute him. Nothing beyond heinous, not even coming close to his OOT self's own crimes.
OOT is the only one honestly worth looking at, imo.
Also, yes, please list all of Kahn's crimes here. He's got quite a few, but we should properly discuss them first.
edited 2nd Mar '14 11:56:46 AM by Irene
Shadow?