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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#225001: Aug 13th 2020 at 1:28:22 PM

[tup] Plutonium Boss. [tdown] Bethany. (IT'S OVER 9000!... Sorry.)

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#225002: Aug 13th 2020 at 1:31:06 PM

[tup]Plutonian boss

[tdown]Bethany (in any other show we’d probably say yes, but Criminal Minds... it’s so much of a cesspool that no one else could do anything remarkable any more)

Edited by nwotyzal on Aug 13th 2020 at 1:31:11 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#225003: Aug 13th 2020 at 1:47:52 PM

Scraggle, these work for Bacaar?

  • OINK: Heaven's Butcher, by John Mueller: Cardinal Bacaar is the man responsible for the existence of the swine-men and the wretched conditions of the city of Heaven. Bacaar runs Heaven as a hellish dystopia overshadowed by religious rhetoric, raising the swine-men to embrace their existence as slaves living squalid lives of misery in slaughterhouses, while having any who so much as talk up tortured or hunted down by his Angels and executed. Bacaar is also responsible for the Birthing Factory, a grotesque place where women are captured and turned into breeding stock, hooked up to machines that constantly inseminate them to give birth to the pig-men, fully aware of everything until they wear out and die. Even when the Birthing Factory's destruction brings the flames upon the rest of Heaven, Bacaar holds himself above his own guilt and dismisses the destruction of his city as an act of divine "providence" upon them.
I think the only objection would be that the work's too dark, but it doesn't seem like that's the case.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#225004: Aug 13th 2020 at 1:51:09 PM

Yeah Baccar is a guy whose the reason his work is so dark in the first place.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#225005: Aug 13th 2020 at 1:58:38 PM

Ayo, 9000+ pages, congrats you guys!

Here's a Darek write-up, if we really are accepting him:

  • Devils & Thieves: Darek Delacroix, son of the late Henry Lacroix, is an extremely powerful kindled with the power to steal other powers and use them against other people. Intending to steal magic from one kindled of every power and become the most powerful person in the world, he attempts to accomplish this goal by manipulating Jemmie, pretending to be born without powers to make her trust him more while also trying to trick her into staying away from Crowe- such as pretending to have been attacked by him. He uses the annual festival to kidnap other Kindled, including his uncle, an old lady, and Jemmie's parents, almost murders Jemmie despite claiming to love her, and tortures her and Crowe afterward by attempting to make them kill each other. Afterward, he shows Crowe horrific illusions of murdering his friends and then successfully kills his uncle, who he'd been abusing and using the entire time. While partially motivated by revenge for his murdered father, he and his father were both power-hungry psychopaths, and the one time he seemed genuinely sad about his father was during an attempt to manipulate Jemmie. Darek is cruel and power-hungry to the core, happy to hurt and kill whoever he had to in order to make himself a god.

I'll add it to the drafts in a minute.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 13th 2020 at 5:00:02 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#225006: Aug 13th 2020 at 2:00:34 PM

Did I vote on Darek? I remember that one making me apprehensive about the relationship with his father so I'll add in a no if I haven't already.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#225007: Aug 13th 2020 at 2:01:37 PM

[up] I don't remember. I know questions were asked about him, but there weren't many votes or responses after I answered said questions to the best of my ability.

For reference, here's my post on the subject.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 13th 2020 at 5:02:52 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#225008: Aug 13th 2020 at 2:02:43 PM

Gotcha, well let's extend that a bit just so nothing gets missed.

Also yes to the boss.

Edited by 43110 on Aug 13th 2020 at 5:02:58 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#225009: Aug 13th 2020 at 2:07:16 PM

Sounds good, I'll see if there's a few more votes that come in before adding my thing to the drafts then. There's a little consensus right now, but more discussion is definitely a good idea.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#225010: Aug 13th 2020 at 2:14:31 PM

[tup]m to the boss

[tdown] to Bethany

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#225011: Aug 13th 2020 at 2:16:41 PM

Switching to abstain on Darek.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#225012: Aug 13th 2020 at 2:39:33 PM

I know I said yes to him in the past, but now I'm starting to reconsider, mainly how it said he did mourn his dad.

[down]Got it confused in my head, changed. Also if that's the case I'll keep my [tup]

Edited by nwotyzal on Aug 13th 2020 at 2:46:03 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#225013: Aug 13th 2020 at 2:45:14 PM

[up] His uncle? He never mourned his uncle. He murdered his uncle. You mean dad? Because he claimed to have been in mourning, but the story he told Jemmie was falsified and exaggerated for tragedy, and then he was super casual and chill about it after showing his true colors.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#225014: Aug 13th 2020 at 2:49:04 PM

Sorry, can you elaborate a bit more again on 'casual and chill' with it? Does he discuss his father in a less exaggerated way after? I seem to have forgotten

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#225015: Aug 13th 2020 at 2:53:26 PM

Basically, the first time he tells Jemmie about having a dead father, he plays it up for sympathy while also completely changing how the story went.

When he actually admits to being Henry's son, though, he's basically just like "yeah, your dad killed my father so I killed yours" and it says he said it "casually". Otherwise he mostly brings it up to taunt others, such as reminding Crowe about how his dad was a killer, calling his uncle a fake Delacroix, and claiming he couldn't stay hidden once he learned who he was. There's very little sign that he actually cared about his father once the truth comes out- he's pretty calm when he talks about it and uses it as a way to hurt or manipulate others. He doesn't talk about it otherwise.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 13th 2020 at 5:56:22 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#225016: Aug 13th 2020 at 2:59:57 PM

Not a huge fan of the idea of writing off potential care for his dad, even if he's a murderous asshole. He killed someone out of spite for his dad being dead, nothing actually subverts it and he seems to mention him enough times.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#225017: Aug 13th 2020 at 3:04:37 PM

I'm goin to say [tdown] Darek.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#225019: Aug 13th 2020 at 3:12:09 PM

And that's fair; I just think it's important to keep in mind the context in which he talks about his dad- it's always when taunting or manipulating other people. Otherwise he always talks about himself and how he's going to be a god- it's never about "my father died so I'll kill you". It's the other characters who jump to the conclusion he's out for revenge- Darek never confirms or denies this. Killian, the one who actually looked after him and tried to keep him safe, was treated like dirt by him, so it does make me question it all.

It's complicated, ya know? He only shows his true evil colors for the last few chapters of the book, enough time to develop his heinousness and motivations, but not enough time to explore his familial relationships (except for with Killian).

I'm fine if you guys don't think he fits- I just want a proper consensus so I know for sure.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 13th 2020 at 6:20:15 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#225020: Aug 13th 2020 at 3:50:57 PM

[tup] to the Plutonium Boss

[tdown] to Bethany (chriminal minds has a high heinous standard and she doesn’t seem to do enough to stand out)

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Bootlebat Since: Dec, 2012
#225021: Aug 13th 2020 at 4:19:51 PM

Can someone answer my question about the Ebon Dragon? I tried searching for him but couldn't find anything (in part because his name is fairly generic)

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#225023: Aug 13th 2020 at 4:27:04 PM

Here's one from an older game:

What's the work?

Rune was a game developed by Human Head studios, following viking warrior Ragnar who is betrayed by the evil raider Conrack. Left for dead, Ragnar is made the champion of Odin to avert Ragnarok and take his revenge....let's talk Conrack.

Who is Conrack?

A traitor who razes a village allied to Ragnar's own, Conrack swore himself to the imprisoned Loki, the Trickster God to kickstart Ragnarok and make himself the master of what remains. Conrack opens up by obliterating the ship ragnar is on, killing Ragnar's followers and friends, dozens of Viking, while only Ragnar himself survives. Conrack intends on leading his destruction to destroy the Runestones that function as locks on Loki's prison in this capacity.

Now, Conrack? To provide Loki with soldiers, he leads his armies to slaughter countless people, all in dishonorable ends, to send their souls down to Loki's daughter Hel, so she can use them for Loki's armies, Conrac making the land run absolutely crimson and souls are flowing down to become slaves to Loki's army. Conrack's second in command, Sigurd,actually has problems with all Conrack is doing and all but begs him to cease it. Conrack has him killed in response. Ragnar pursues the rogue Viking to Loki's own lair, seemingly defeating him, but Conrack revives from a lake of magic venom as a monster and decides to wipe out Ragnar's home village, gloating how they'll be easy prey without any warriors to defend them....and with Loki free with the Runestones gone? Ragnarok can begin, and Loki's armies can invade.

Ragnar is able to cut it off and ends up facing Conrack in a final battle, killing the evil Viking once and for all before being accepted to Valhalla.

Heinousness?

For a mortal Viking and terrible boss? Conrack kills tons of people, slaughtering innumerable villages and innocent souls with the intention of complete world annihilation so he can rule by Loki. Easy pass here.

Mitigating Qualities?

Nothing. He doesn't even care about Loki save for the power he can glean off of it. Conrack isn' an especially deep character, just a violent murderer who loves carnage and desires power.

Conclusion?

Easy keeper. I should note Loki would've been a shoe in for all he does here and the sequel...except for a single line of dialogue at the very end towards his fight when he comments "Hel...Jormungandr...Fenrir...I'm so sorry. I've been such a bad father."

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#225025: Aug 13th 2020 at 4:39:32 PM

[tup]Conrak

Well tbf most of the other loki's we have come from works where his kids are adapted out in the work. Though gotta say one line dqs are hilarious

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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