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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#224526: Aug 8th 2020 at 6:42:08 PM

[up] The only thing we have not touched upon is the second X-Box Ninja Gaiden game, I looked it up on Youtube, 4 demon generals and a demon priest want to revive their master, the arch-Fiend, but it doesn't seem like the game makes it clear that reviving the Arch-Fiend will cause the Apocalypse or something, so their goal may be too vague.

UltimateDemonBeast65 Since: Feb, 2018
#224527: Aug 8th 2020 at 6:43:29 PM

EDIT: Ignore this message, my input isn't helping.

Edited by UltimateDemonBeast65 on Aug 8th 2020 at 8:27:26 AM

DeCarta Since: May, 2011
#224528: Aug 8th 2020 at 6:49:02 PM

Any more thoughts on those quotes I posted two pages back?

EDIT: I'll put all except the Michael Myers line on the Drafts page (Halloween is a favourite franchise of mine, and it's a great quote, but on reflection, it doesn't quite fit the trope, plus there are already three quotes about Myers, counting the one at the head of the CM page itself).

Edited by DeCarta on Aug 8th 2020 at 12:18:21 PM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#224529: Aug 8th 2020 at 6:57:34 PM

Also anymore opinions on which quote to use for the Terminator page?

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#224530: Aug 8th 2020 at 7:01:37 PM

Sure to the quotes and this isn't really a fan fic discussion I want to weigh in too much other than... are these necessary details to correct? Demon I think you've come in before to say people got stuff wrong about your stories and I want to be sure whatever you're correcting will be relevant to the EP or writeup... also, if what you're saying is pertinent in the circumstances I just listed, doesn't that, kinda... raise questions about the initial EP?

AFreakyDude Since: Jul, 2015
#224531: Aug 8th 2020 at 7:18:59 PM

What are your thoughts of this quote from Thailog of Gargoyles?

"This rig is not as empty as it looks. My first visit out here, I found 200 gallons of stored oil topside, a fact that doesn’t bode well for the four of you. On my way out, I’m going to open these tanks, flood the platform with oil. This flare gun will be my parting shot. I can’t wait to see all three of my proud fathers go out in a fiery blaze of glory."

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#224533: Aug 8th 2020 at 7:20:11 PM

Uh don't like it. Works better under Kill It with Fire, Man on Fire or maybe Patricide

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#224535: Aug 8th 2020 at 7:30:34 PM

Not feeling the quote.

Honestly, if the OP got details wrong in the effortpost, I would suggest that you message them about it. I am switching to "Abstain" on Abbadon.

[down] That is what I was getting at.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Aug 8th 2020 at 10:56:35 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#224536: Aug 8th 2020 at 7:44:20 PM

Im like very sure the character keeps unless major details were missed. If accuracy's an issue, might be best to do it in PM

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#224537: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:04:49 PM

EDIT: Deleted because I'd like a second opinion before I get votes cast on it.

SECOND EDIT: Not doing it.

Edited by Stellarvore on Aug 8th 2020 at 10:46:50 AM

UltimateDemonBeast65 Since: Feb, 2018
#224538: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:26:37 PM

That's what I was afraid of. So I'll keep my mouth shut.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#224539: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:37:52 PM

Doesn't sound like there is anything majorly incorrect with the details. But otherwise, yeah, PM the troper on any questions.

Edited by AustinDR on Aug 8th 2020 at 8:38:00 AM

UltimateDemonBeast65 Since: Feb, 2018
#224540: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:39:48 PM

Yeah I know. I'll do that from now on, because what I did before didn't help.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#224541: Aug 8th 2020 at 9:17:24 PM

EDIT: @Sky Cat 32 I guess that's a good reason. Shouldn't have asked.

Edited by nwotyzal on Aug 8th 2020 at 9:54:41 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#224542: Aug 8th 2020 at 9:22:16 PM

Nwot, I think Stellar is worried about posting Grim-derp schlock.

Stellarvore Since: Apr, 2016
#224543: Aug 8th 2020 at 10:00:13 PM

[up] Yep. Hence why I'm not doing it. Sorry, in a bad mood right now and my judgment ... isn't perfect. Won't happen again.

Edited by Stellarvore on Aug 8th 2020 at 12:13:34 PM

DrScavenge27 Since: Jul, 2020
#224544: Aug 8th 2020 at 10:53:20 PM

Unicron's write-up.

The Transformers Fanfic A Child Shall Lead Them: Unicron as vile as in canon. Evil brother and antithesis of Primus himself, Unicron devoured many planets and their inhabitants including Lithone, Kranix's homeworld. After getting the information about Optimus Prime's death, he rebuild Megatron into Galvatron, orders him to destroy the Pterodactus Prime and devours autobot's Moonbase. When Galvatron fails him, Unicron decide to destroy Cybertron as a punishment. After Pterodactus got inside him, Unicron tried to convince him to destroy the Matrix of Leadership and when that fails, orders Galvatron to kill him. Sadistic and merciless monster that hates Primus' creatures, Unicron won't stop until he destroy all the Universe.

Edited by DrScavenge27 on Aug 8th 2020 at 11:08:54 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (8,356/50,000)
#224545: Aug 8th 2020 at 11:46:09 PM

Just dawned on me that a book I read a few months ago, Devils & Thieves, might have a keeper- might, assuming the one potential mitigating factor isn't actually so mitigating. IDK. I'll need to re-read it if I do the EP, but it's something I'm considering, so yeah, that's just a quick heads up for the future.

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#224547: Aug 9th 2020 at 3:08:38 AM

Please add Unicron to the Drafts.

I'll work on the Terminator page tomorrow, along with possibly one of those 2 In Death candidates (the other one, from Kindred, I'm more sure now doesn't count, though if someone else wants to read it, go for it).

[tup] Abaddon and Skynet.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#224548: Aug 9th 2020 at 3:10:50 AM

And now for the final EP for Terminator comics

What is the Work?

The Terminator: Tempest, The Terminator: Secondary Objectives, The Terminator: The Enemy Within, The Terminator: Endgame are four miniseries, 3 of which consisted of four issues and the final one consisted of 3 issues. Together they form an arc, where the group of soldiers from the future, traveled to the past to try to prevent the creation of Skynet. They succeeded in the final issue of the Endgame. Along the way the fight off Terminators, sent by Skynet to stop them and try to track down the man and his would be partner, who are responsible for creation of Skynet in this version.

My candidates are this duo - Dr. Bertram Hollister and Dr. Ed Astin, who appeared in the first 3 miniseries.

Who is Dr. Bertram Hollister and Dr. Ed Astin?

The head of Cyberdyne Systems corporation and his assistant respectively, Hollister was always a greedy asshole, who made life hell for Astin. As Astin goes for a lunch, he meets a woman, who was really the leader of the soldiers from the future, named Mary, who came to stop the creation of Skynet by killing Hollister and after winning Astin's trust, she and her soldiers lure him into a trap and make him lead them to Hollister. They break into Hollister's office, who then (thinking they are foreign agents) offered to give them all information they want if they spare him, only for Astin to jump at the Mary and allow Hollister to call the police, with Terminators (who were send to protect Hollister) arriving and shooting one of the soldiers from the Resistance's group. They take Hollister with them, while Resistance takes Astin, and both want answers, with the Resistance giving the truth to Astin (who don't believe it) and Terminators take him to his warehouse laboratory and lying to Hollister to convince him to finish his work. He gives them the location of the needed materials he needs, leading to the Terminators stealing it and then hunting down Astin, leading to him running back to the Resistance group and Terminators tracking them down and killing two of their members. As Astin convinced to lead them to Hollister, Hollister himself is eager to start to work and reveals that the materials are the remains of the Terminator, who was destroyed by Sarah Connor during the events of the original terminator movie. Remaining Resistance group with Astin ambush them there with dynamites, only for one of the Terminators to stall time with lies and then open fire on his fellow Terminators and destroying the remains of the terminator from the original movie. That Terminator is revealed to be a former human, who was captured by Skynet and turned into half cyborg to work as the "doctor", fixing the Terminators, until he sees the opportunity to escape from Skynet and takes it. As the group destroys Terminators, Hollister finds a laser gun from the future and then receives a Terminator head, allowing him to continue his research.

The above is a stuff from the first miniseries, that actually serves as a needed backstory to make the futher events more understandable in my EP, here will come their actual deeds. After these events, Astin come to somewhat regret his role as a "hero" and contact Hollister to arrange a meeting. Hollister though, after managing to find out that the future, of what he has been told (Skynet killing everyone and machines trying to commit complete genocide), is true, intends to use this meeting to frame Astin for the crimes of the Terminators and proceed with the development of Skynet, saying that he doesn't care if Skynet kills billions of humans through his actions, all that matters to him is getting rich. Asting is driven off from the meeting by the new arriving Terminator, foiling Hollister's plan.

In the Enemy Within, Astin, envy at the developing relationship between Mary and Dudley (that half Terminator who joined them at the end of the first miniseries), come up with a plan. As Dudley asks him to operate on him and remove any Skynet's influence (as Skynet tried to regain control of his "Terminator half"), Astin convinces Mary to leave, while he himself discovers the needed information in Dudley's brain and download it and escapes, while leaving the computer on status "Purge", so that it would wipe Dudley's brain clean and turn him into brainwiped "zombie". Mary and Dudley quickly deduced that Astin wants to give this information to Hollister, as he tracks him down. As Hollister is being an asshole to his workers as usual, Astin meets him and offers him to join forces in exchange for splitting the fortune that they make, despite both of them knowing that it would result in the deaths of billions, only for the other Resistance group from the future to ambush them, leading to Hollister killing their leader and the group shooting them down, finishing them for good. In the next miniseries, it was revealed that their deaths changed the future for the better, as now the humans started to win, due to fighting back earlier, as Skynet creation is delayed, much more humans have survived Skynet's intitial attack and the world is much less of a rubble (as the buildings still stand), showing off that the attack itself was less destructive. The comic ends with Sarah Connor giving birth to the daughter, Jane Connor, who led humanity to destroy Skynet much earlier, thus not giving it a chance to send a Terminator to the past, removing all paradoxes and saving mankind by removing the machines from history completely.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Hollister had none to begin with, while Astin starts out as a "good guy", in the Enemy Within he throws them all away, betraying his friends and everyone he once cared about (fully don't caring about them at all now) and assisting Hollister in the creation of the future, that nearly destroys mankind.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Their most notable and only crime, that makes them stand out, is eagerly wanting to create Skynet, despite knowing that it would kill billions in the future. They don't even do anything to make this future less possible, they simply develop the system, only caring about getting rich "in the present", while the future may go to hell. It is fully stated how this will destroy the world, how they know it and how they don't care and how many will die. It is also stated that they are responsible for the destruction of the world in the future to being with and although Skynet is shown to manage to came to be, Hollister and Astin are the only creators, who know what it will do and proceed to create it anyway. Hell, their deaths created a brighter future for mankind, with more people surviving Skynet's war, buildings still standing and humanity having much more chances to defeat the machines. Plus, Astin's attempt to mindwipe Dudley into a brainless zombie give him a heinous point.

Final Verdict?

What do you think?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#224549: Aug 9th 2020 at 3:20:10 AM

Sure to those two. Interesting how we have so many incarnations of Skynet, but these are the first incarnations of its creator(s) to count.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#224550: Aug 9th 2020 at 3:40:59 AM

[tup]Hollister and Astin

[up]Kinda. In Genysis, Skynet counts and is it's own creator.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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