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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#224426: Aug 8th 2020 at 1:29:39 AM

[tup] to Wheeler.

Also we are discussing the Rick and Morty comics not the show, and as I previously mentioned takes place in an Alternate Continuity and Alternate Dimension divorced from the show and villains can qualify as a CM in humorous works so long as they meet or surpass the heinous standard and are taken completely seriously for the most part.

Edited by G-Editor on Aug 7th 2020 at 10:32:07 PM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#224429: Aug 8th 2020 at 2:40:00 AM

[tup] Wheeler. I believe the first CM for John Ritter.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#224430: Aug 8th 2020 at 3:09:51 AM

[tup] to Wheeler. Abstain on Jerry.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#224431: Aug 8th 2020 at 4:00:36 AM

[tup]wheeler

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#224432: Aug 8th 2020 at 4:20:20 AM

Here's my problem with the Doofus Jerry debate.

The R&M comic book series is a separate continuity from the main show and comic!Rick is notably more nicer and less heinous than Show! Rick (the crimes you mentioned Rick committed come from the show not the comic). I should also note that the comic book series also includes the D&D crossover that Lucy and Sebastian appear in (the R&M duo that we actually approved as CMs)

Okay, cool. ...But what's the heinous level like within the comics? The protagonists can still be nicer but still do horrible stuff in the comic continuity.

Also, there's this:

He is never Played for Laughs except for his death

But then later there's this:

Being taken more seriously than the show usually is is not sufficient for this trope, that's Knight of Cerebus. Hes still played got laughs and hes really not that heinous on a Sadist Show where even the good guys commit genocides every once in a while.

Like...guys. Which one is it? Is he Played for Laughs or not? Does he breech the heinous standard or not?

[tup] for Dr. David Wheeler.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#224433: Aug 8th 2020 at 4:32:48 AM

IMO, someone taken seriously but has a goofy death can still count. Wrecking Paul comes to mind.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#224434: Aug 8th 2020 at 4:34:05 AM

Being fair that work was much more serious. Plus you know he wasn't named Doofus.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#224435: Aug 8th 2020 at 4:35:03 AM

[up][up] That's why I'm asking for clarification. There's been numerous villains we approved who had ignominious deaths—that doesn't bother me, nor does being Laughably Evil. But if the character is Played for Laughs entirely despite being evil, that's a different story.

Edited by Tyk5919 on Aug 8th 2020 at 7:36:25 AM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#224436: Aug 8th 2020 at 4:54:36 AM

@Wary have you read the comics and based the 'Hes still Played for Laughs' thing on that? Or was that just related to the death thing.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Snowy66 Since: May, 2012
#224437: Aug 8th 2020 at 5:21:32 AM

Well it wasn't so much "his death was treated as a joke", and more that it's Jerry Prime being an idiot that caused him to get his karma. He was about to and would have killed the Smith family had that lucky accident not happened.

It's just the nature of his death that was a little more ridiculous than usual.

Edited by Snowy66 on Aug 8th 2020 at 5:34:33 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#224438: Aug 8th 2020 at 5:33:04 AM

[tup] to Wheeler; pretty surprised that the DCAU got another CM.

Abstain on Doofus Jerry at the moment.

EDIT: Gonna say no on Jerry.

Edited by falcontalons on Aug 8th 2020 at 7:47:51 AM

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#224439: Aug 8th 2020 at 6:58:10 AM

Actually reading the EP I think I am going to go with a no on Jerry. Forcing people to call you "Miggty Miggty Mack" under threat of execution sounds a little humorous too and it doesn't sound like he commits any genocides or anything, what got the duo on the trope (and even they barely managed to make it) is that they attempted omnicide.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#224440: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:02:17 AM

Yes to Wheeler.

Here is my Jaquio EP:

Who is the Jaquio? What has he done?

The Jaquio (real name Guardia de Mieux, Jaquio is a title that roughly translates to King of the Devils) is an Evil Sorcerer who wants to rule the world and is the main villain of the first 2 NES Ninja Gaiden games. Jaquio learns of a legend, of a demon that came to Earth 700 years ago and went on a killing spree. The Demon was defeated by a Shinobi and its spirit was split into 2 different demon statutes and its body was imprisoned in a temple in the Amazon. Jaquio learns that the Demon will grant enough power to rule the world to whoever frees it and Jaquio intends to fulfill this prophecy, taking over the ruins of the temple and making it his base.

Jaquio attacks Ryu's father Ken because he has one of the statutes. Jaquio's right-hand man, Bloody Malth seemingly kills Ken and Ryu wants revenge. Jaquio kills Ken's friend Walter Smith and steals one of the statutes from him. Ryu learns of Jaquio and confronts him at his fortress. Jaquio has Ryu's Love Interest, CIA agent Irene Lew held at sword point and demands Ryu give him the other statute or she dies. Ryu complies and Jaquio tells him to Have a nice day and uses a trap door to get rid of Ryu and plans to sacrifice Irene to the Demon.

Later Ryu confronts Jaquio in his inner sanctum and Jaquio has his servant the Masked Devil attack Ryu. Ryu says the Masked Devil cannot beat him, but Jaquio reveals the Masked Devil is actually Ryu's father Ken, now Jaquio's mind-controlled puppet and Jaquio thinks it will be entertaining to watch father and son fight to the death. Ryu frees his father and Jaquio decides to kill them both, blasting Ken with a magic attack. Ryu fights and kills Jaquio, but a solar eclipse occurs, with both demon statutes in the temple, freeing the Demon. Ryu slays the Demon and everything is set right again.....

But not really, Jaquio is brought to life again through evil magic and plans to try again to free his demon masters. Jaquio gets ahold of the Sword of Choas, an evil blade made from a bone of the demon. The Sword can open a portal that will allow a horde of demons to enter Earth and uses a pawn, Ashtar, to further his plans. Ashtar kidnaps Irene and brings her to Jaquio's fortress, Ashtar stabs Irene when confronted by Ryu. After Ryu defeats Ashtar, he teleports the Sword of Choas somewhere else and dies. Ryu goes to find the evil blade and an Alter of Darkness Irene tells him about, that is the key to releasing the demons. Ryu leaves, but the Jaquio appears and kidnaps Irene, again.

Ryu again confronts Jaquio in his inner sanctum, where he has the Sword of Chaos and the Alter of Darkness and he will sacrifice Irene and Ryu to help release the demons. Ryu kills Jaquio again and his blood is spilled on the Sword of Choas, activating it and opening a portal to allow the demons to enter Earth. Jaquio's body is revived and he takes the form of the Demon, Ryu kills the Demon again and ends Jaquio's and the Demon's evil reign for good, sealing the portal in the process.

Is he heinous by the standard of the work?

His main competition is Clancy, who wanted to destroy humanity and replace it with creatures of his own creation.

I think Jaquio can stand out though, the demon statute is said to have enough evil power to destroy a nation, the Demon went on a killing spree when it first came to Earth 700 years ago and will do so again if freed and in the second game, if Jaquio succeeds, the world will be plunged into darkness and demons will rule forever, with Ryu's ally, Robert T.S saying that will be the end of all Mankind, Jaquio tried to free these demons twice. I think he matches Clancy in terms of evil.

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

Ha, ha ha....No.

He was originally rejected because of a lack of personality, but I challenge that, he is pretty cruel and sadistic. He threatens to kill Irene if Ryu doesn't give him the statute and goes back on his word right away, he takes sadistic glee at the idea of forcing Ryu to fight his father and can make jokes, he tells Ryu to have a nice day before getting rid of him via a trap door. He has a goal, he wants to rule the world and thinks the power of the Demon can help him. He is not a super deep character, but there is enough there, IMO.

Final Verdict?

Keep for Guardia de Mieux, the Jaquio.

Edited by Overlord on Aug 8th 2020 at 10:16:09 AM

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#224441: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:03:11 AM

The fact that it is in the comics does not change the overall heinous standard of the show, and it doesn't change that this guy is clearly Played for Laughs

like...

". Now leader of the Citadel, he has made the Ricks construct a gold statue of himself (actually a Humongous Mecha), ordering everyone to address him as "Miggity Miggity Miggity Mack" and a failure to do so would lead to execution, as well as surrounding himself with Beths from various dimensions (though he still desires Beth Prime above all else)."

C'mon lol.

I also don't really understand what this guy does that is so heinous in a series where things like genocide and murder happens all the time. His plan just seems to be your typical Take Over the World thing. This all feels like a massive stretch to try to get a Rick and Morty character in and I'm a solid [tdown]

DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#224442: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:07:20 AM

Sure to Jaq.

Just finished reading The White Rider. Another pretty good read! No keepers, so I'm not going to to bother with an EP, but I'm going to at least give a brief summary of the two candidates in case anyone has any doubts.

The first is the White Rider himself, a seemingly supernatural killer with a skull for a face who robs people on the road, always killing one person by merely pointing a finger so the others believe he's serious and hand over all their money before running away. However, it's eventually revealed that the White Rider is actually a former black slave named Caliban and his partner in crime, Drayton, is the one who helps stage the murders by shooting the White Rider with a blank, after which Caliban points a finger and Drayton collapses onto the floor, making the witnesses believe the White Rider has supernatural powers. In other words, the White Rider never actually hurts anybody, so definitely not a keeper.

The other candidate is a copycat killer who impersonates the White Rider. Daniel Thornley is the childhood friend of Tom Marlowe's friend, Dr Harker. Thornley is a government worker whose job mainly involves hunting down and sentencing Jacobites (tl;dr, traitors) to death. Thornley seems friendly enough at first, but then it's eventually revealed that he accrued hefty gambling debts and turned to theft and murder to pay them off, impersonating the White Rider and robbing Tom and Dr Harker (yes, his own childhood friend), coincidentally running into Caliban and Drayton at the same time and shooting Drayton dead. He doesn't hesitate to try and kill the 16-year-old Tom Marlowe when he figures it out, and later still, even after paying off his debts, decides to keep stealing and threatens to kill his former friends as well as Tom unless they give him the rest of their money. He then dies in a knife fight. Thornley's a rotten bastard, but there's one thing stopping me from giving him a proper EP. It seems that he legitimately loved Dr Harker's wife, Mary. At first I thought it was a possessive thing, that he saw Mary as an object who deserved to be his, especially after he claims Harker "stole" her and doesn't seem to care when told she would have been miserable if she married him and at least lived a few happy years with Harker before she was murdered. But after revisiting that scene, it seems that Thornley genuinely mourned her after her death, and he also tries to claim he would have become a better person if he married her. His friends call BS, but Thornley himself seems to at least believe it.

So yeah, no keepers, but Thornley pretty close. But hey, maybe someone else can give the book a read and see if they think otherwise.

At least the heinous standard doesn't really change all that much, which means Shepton stays for now. I'll take a look at the third and final book, Redwulf's Curse soon enough. These books are surprisingly entertaining for Elementary School level!

(Also, little funfact, I found out the other day that "Shepton" means "Sheep". Don't you love ironic names?)

RIP KissAnime.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#224444: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:13:23 AM

Yes to the other two but no to Doofus Jerry. This is getting annoying, most people on MB said he'd been discussed before and that this was a bad idea.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#224445: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:21:15 AM

[tup] to Jaquio

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#224446: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:23:52 AM

Say, would Jaquio be the oldest video game CM if approved? Mateus was December 17, 1988, but Ninja Gaiden was released 8 days earlier in Japan.

EDIT: No, there's Darm and Dalles.

Edited by ACW on Aug 8th 2020 at 11:28:47 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#224447: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:24:50 AM

[tup]Jaquio

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#224449: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:37:16 AM

[tup] to Wheeler and Jaquio. Abstain on Jerry.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#224450: Aug 8th 2020 at 8:39:04 AM

Yes to Wheeler and Jaquio.

As for Jerry. Funny you should mention this being the R&M comics. Because the crossover is actually in a different continue then that. I know this because I remember that discussion. You see in the main comics I remember it being mention that Rick still destroys a multiverse in a moment Played for Laughs. So no to Jerry.

Edited by Bullman on Aug 8th 2020 at 10:40:53 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

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