During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Exactly. She doesn't think she's helping others by hurting them - she both thinks she's doing the world and humanity as a whole a service by hurting them, and does it For the Evulz because she's despair incarnate. She's pretty much the anti-Madoka Kamane in a way - rather than a pure hearted girl who became hope itself, she's a pure evil girl who became despair itself.
edited 26th Feb '14 11:54:45 AM by ANewMan
@ A New Man, with those characters I would call them "crazy" rather than actually insane. They're not normal, but are still sane (or their sane personas are still monsters like Osborn).
Also, I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but saying we need more fans to make the vote fair sounds a bit dodgy. The point of the trope and the examples we write is so that people who aren't familiar with the work can reach a decision based on the facts as delivered in the 'first game. So the tragedy is irrelevant at this discussion since it is not elaborated. If the sequel pushes her over the edge to CM status she gets listed on the sequels page.
So, IF doesn't count because it falls under alternate continuity, the prequel or the sequel would be listed under those works since we don't list Complete Monsters on the story arcs where they wouldn't qualify in that story.
So even if The sequel made her a CM, that wouldn't mean she gets an example on the first game. Hence, we take the first game as it's own entity and don't factor in the others.
OE, I cut Gregor and Craster.
Lighty, the Chaos God sure has Blue-and-Orange Morality.
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I concur on that. Fandom's can become very insular, and isolated against outside opinions. To use your example, Katejina is so loathed within the Gundam fandom that the possibility that she might not qualify was just beyond some of them. In fact many of our most problematic characters have been ones the fandom loathes.
I'm still saying no on the character under discussion.
edited 26th Feb '14 12:24:32 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
@Anew Man
Also none of the characters you listed in your "but they're insane" list fall into actual insanity. Yazan Gable? He's about as rational as a Sociopathic Soldier can get. Junko shifts through a dozen personalities in under a minute. That's very different from simply being a psychopath.
Yes most CM candidates would have some form of personality disorder, but that's not the same as being clinically insane. And for that matter we have disqualified some characters whose personality disorders were especially extreme (Alice Morgan, for instance).
I don't get this logic, particular regarding the prequel. I'll give you the sequel, because it's AI Junko and not the real person, but I don't know how a character can qualify as a CM in one part of the series and not in the other. I was under the impression that it's an all or none deal regarding CMs, and the Junko in DR0 is the same as the Junko in DR. It's part of the same series/plot, not differing takes on the story.
♥ ♦ ♠ ♣@Shaoken: I was up for calling in more fans because it seemed few people here are too familiar with the work and the character. Even you have only gone through the first installment, which as I said, only covers half of Junko's character and actions. And the sequel and other material does matter for judging the character as a whole. Didn't a bunch of EU stuff come up when judging Palpatine?
They can be reactionary as well, like Gundam fans with Katejina
The difference is that that was because the majority of the fanbase hated Katejina, as Ambar pointed out. From what I can see, the Dangan Ronpa fandom loves Junko and Monokuma in the same way many Laughably Evil psychopathic monsters are loved by fans. So if Junko's being called a Complete Monster, it's not out of hate.
Junko shifts through a dozen personalities in under a minute.
We've covered before that it's not multiple personality disorder. In fact, most of the personalities she's playing appear to be mock-ups of her victims/enemies in the room with her.
What we really need here is a final clear evidence of her moral agency, since that's what's stumping most people. Anything that suggest she can't really help herself or not?
edited 26th Feb '14 12:54:01 PM by ANewMan
@22395: It's just that listing both those characters feels redundant to me. They're pretty much exactly like they are in the books. Gregor I could possibly see including eventually since it looks like they're going to be actually giving him screen time this season, but so far in the show his actions are near identical to the book version. Even moreso with Craster who does nothing to distinguish himself from his literary counterpart.
Wanting a Complete Monster out of a misguided sense of "badge of honor" is just as likely to cause fans to "prove" the character is bad. I've been visiting this thread because I believe Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil, and a character I'm familiar with did it physically and mentally. None of the other characters in the franchise even approaches that type of evil, except perhaps the protagonist.
Alternate Continuity for alternate mediums, however, is taken seriously in this thread, so it seems likely your character must be evaluated on the merits of the first game alone.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.Wait, did Bateman qualify? He’s on YMMV, but not on any of the CM pages...
edited 26th Feb '14 1:09:51 PM by ACW
So, just keep him on YMMV?
Also, Commando has Arius and Bennett but they're not on the Film page...
Dangan Ronpa, the sequel game (Super Dangan Ronpa 2), and the prequel novels (Dangan Ronpa Zero), all are a part of the same story. The only alternate universe one is Dangan Ronpa IF.
♥ ♦ ♠ ♣I know Yhwach's not on the list yet, but he was considered a pretty good contender, so I wanted to say that something in this week's chapter has cast doubt on that. We get the backstory of his henchman As Nodt, and it turns out Nodt was one of the "impure" Quincy Yhwach tried to purge. But he survived and Yhwach.. was so impressed he immediately gave Nodt a high rank in his army.
Not exactly, HT. He did the same with uryu Ishida.
Remember the whole purpose of the Stern ritter...to get stronger with his power, then die and return that power to him, presumably with the extra. Yhwach, like with Uryu, saw a powerful minion and gave him his flesh/blood to empower him with the purpose of eventually sacrificing him.
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Wasn't he given a Freudian Excuse (or at least the beginning of one) a few chapters ago?
edited 26th Feb '14 4:48:31 PM by doineedaname
This entry needs work:
- In Mawaru-Penguindrum, up until the first half, those opposing the Takakuras were revealed to have at least a sad or sympathetic background, I.E, Masako chases after Kanba relentlessly, but she also wants to save her brother Mario; Sanetoshi is a Manipulative Bastard, but he lost his "special person" and still longs to find her again. However, in episode 15, we see that the latest "antagonist", Yuri Tokikago, is a thoroughly broken person, and a Complete Monster was to blame. Said monster is her own father, a famous Mad Artist who carved his daughter's body with a chisel to make her "look beautiful" and be worthy of his love, while telling her that no one would ever love her because of how "ugly" she was. This happens in a flashback and that, in these scenes, Yuri is no older than 8 years old. And it's really not helped by the huge sexual abuse vibes and the implication that Mr. Tokikago either killed or drove away Yuri's Missing Mom because she lost her "perfect beauty" after giving birth to Yuri. No wonder said person developed some of the biggest issues in a series that's already very complicated.
I snipped out some unnecessary bits:
- In Mawaru-Penguindrum, we have Yuri Tokikago's father, a famous Mad Artist who carved his daughter's body with a chisel to make her "look beautiful" and be worthy of his love, while telling her that no one would ever love her because of how "ugly" she was. This happens in a flashback and that, in these scenes, Yuri is no older than 8 years old. And it's really not helped by the huge sexual abuse vibes and the implication that Mr. Tokikago either killed or drove away Yuri's Missing Mom because she lost her "perfect beauty" after giving birth to Yuri. No wonder she developed some of the biggest issues in a series that's already very complicated.
Now comes the question of how much of this is onscreen.
RE the GOT ones (note, have not read the entries recently):
Craster is pretty much the same from book to show- the only difference is that the show version of him is more deceptively normal (probably because disturbingly, there are actual people who have kept women captive in a similar manner).
Gregor actually does less on screen in the show than in the books- probably because even HBO couldn't get away with illustrating his atrocities- so, while I think we should still keep him, he was a tough call so far because relatively few of his crimes have been on camera.
"Luckily", that will change this season, as casting news indicates that the show will show some version of the gang rape he and his men commit in the second book (and there will probably also be some more on screen evidence of their reign of terror across the countryside)- because of the other plotlines, this season really needs to show how awful Gregor is (and by extension how awful Tywin is for using him).
So, even if he is cut for now, I think he will merit reconsideration in the nearish future.
edited 26th Feb '14 7:23:06 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

The moral agency test for CM is not sanity, but whether the character is capable of understanding that what they are doing hurts people, and could, even hypothetically, choose to act differently.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"