During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ivid and Bishop
Go for it
Another quote:
Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Jul 30th 2020 at 6:17:03 AM
~ACW, I just noticed the site falter a minute or so ago. You may wanna copy stuff like the most recent edits for the monster sandboxes into word or something, in particular, the Mythology & Religion page and the drafts.
The quote concerns are directed at Ducky, not you, Wary. Though I will say that good quotes are hard to come by.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 30th 2020 at 11:38:49 AM
People aren't mad that you suggested a quote; that's perfectly acceptable. Rather, people are reminding DemonDuckofDoom of the suggestion that he should take a break from proposing quotes because many of his more recent proposals have been rejected. Given that your quote has three
's, it could be added to drafts.
Now that it's discussion day.
Netflix's Cursed is a dark fantasy drama series told as a reimagining and pseudo origin story to characters of Arthurian Mythos. Staring Katherine Langford (insert Hannah Baker joke here) as the protagonist Nimue, the series follows a scenario where the Sword of Power or Excalibur chose a queen before a king.
With many revisions of the classic Arthurian myths, Nimue is a fey girl who was persecuted her whole life by her village, despite her mother being a high ranking priestess, due to her being "marked by dark gods". Across the Kingdom, a Catholic Order called the Red Paladins are committing mass genocide against the many fey villages. After the Paladins destroy her home, Nimue ends up getting her hands on the Sword of Power and finds herself on a quest to bring the sword to Merlin, who is revealed to be her biological father. Joined on her quest by a young Arthur, Morgana, as well as surviving fey of her village, Nimue finds herself in the crosshairs of a war with the church, and two contenders for the crown, while she herself becomes a hero to her people.
Among the many subplots, one of the overarching villains of the first season is Father Carden.
Who is Carden ? What does he do ?
Father Carden is the leader of the Red Paladins, and the one in charge of their crusades, orchestrating and overseeing the massacres of the fey and their villages, and refugees throughout the season. In the first episode alone, it's established that the Paladins had wiped out twelve villages. Carden himself is introduced giving a lecture about the love of God and his creation to a little boy out in a field, before making it about the purge of the fey; as it turns out said boy was a fey himself and Carden was setting him up to be killed along with the rest of his village. At Carden's side, is the Weeping Monk, a medieval Kylo Ren Clone who we later find out is a fey war orphan that Carden spared for his ability to detect other fey and has since groomed into being a dreaded soldier to the Paladins (also the Weeping Monk turns out to be named Lancelot). Later in the first episode, Nimue barley manages to escape the Paladins as they slaughter her village, kill her mother and leave all but a few survivors; in her escape, Nimue gets her hands on the buried Excalibur which she uses to fight off a pack of wolves - hence her nickname "The Wolf Blood Witch", and so begins her quest for find Merlin.
As you can guess, among the power the sword grants (along one ring type side effects) there are multiple parties who want he sword; there is an ongoing conflict between King Uther and a rival king called a Cumber for the right to the throne (long story); while the Paladins want the sword due to its importance to the fey and to demoralize them. At one point Nimue finds herself in an abby, were she befriends Morgana and they eventually escape when Carden has the nuns searched for a potential fey among them, having at least one nun taken and killed. Upon finding out Nimue has the sword, the Paladins make her a priority target, as she quickly becomes infamous for being a hero to the fey and later named Queen of the Fey.
Later, Carden is reprimanded by the Pope for his failure to capture either Nimue or the Sword, as well as executing and passing another fey off as her to satiate their followers. Throughout the season, Carden tries to get the church power over both contenders to the throne, although the Paladins aren't exactly popular with the kindom due to their actions. At one point Merlin attends a meeting between Carden and King Cumber where we find out some of Carden's past; basically, Carden's a man who came from lowley beginning, and wanted more in life through the church, and is trying to get brownie points for the pope by wiping out the Fey. When Nimue successfully liberates a town from the Paladin's persecution, a representative of the pope arrived to help Carden with the political issues, since he's ill experienced with them.
Midway through the season, the Paladins have the fey knight and Nimue's friend Gawain captured and tortured. A young fey boy named Percivil - who throughout the season is nicknamed "Squirrel" (insert The Sword in the Stone joke here) - arrives at their camp to rescue him, but is caught with Carden ordering the boy to be tortured. When King Uther's illegitimate claim to the throne is revealed and when he grants Fey refugees ships to sail out of the kingdom, Carden feigns loyalty to Uther while planning to betray him to Cumber. In the finale, Carden and Cumber plan to massacre the refugees before the ships set sail, with Carden planning to get his hands on the sword and Nimue for execution. Uther has Gawain freed and returned to Nimue at his camp in exchange for Nimue turning herself over, but Gawain dies form the injuries he received from the torture. Percival is secretly saved by Lancelot when he pulls a Heel–Face Turn. Cumber's men attack the refugees but are wiped out by an army of bandits led by Red Spear (Guinevere). Carden himself leads an attack on Uther's camp, and has a subdued Nimue brought before him to be executed, but luckily Morgana arrives and gives Nimue the sword back. Nimue then cuts off both of Carden's hands and his head.
Redeeming Qualities or Freudian Excuse ?
Carden has no humanizing or sympathetic qualities to his name. He established himself as a father figure to Lancelot, and makes it pretty clear that he at best sees him as a the Paladin's greatest weapon and asset. He doesn't show any care for the Paladin's aside from being his soldiers and at times physically abuses them when they cross him.
While he does have reverence towards the Pope and church, he's just a Professional Butt-Kisser who is trying to get clout from the church. While he does answer to the Vatican, it's made clear in his discussions with the Pope and a representative that he is not acting on his behalf of Pope and his purging of the fey are entirely Carden's plans. The church at large are disconnected from his genocide and only show any interest when Carden is making progress or failing to give the church power in the kingdom.
Carden is also given a brief backstory where we find out he's the son and grandson of miners in a small community, and he went to the church because he didn't consider his families life his calling; Merlin points out that reasons Carden joined the church had little to do with piety and more about getting himself out of bumfuck nowhere, and once again, getting himself clout with the Pope.
Heinous standard
Being a dark fantasy, this isn't exactly the brightest show on Netflix. There are several murders in this story, and even Nimue becomes more ruthless in her journey, notably cutting the hands off one of her people who murdered a human. The village Nimue grew up in persecuted her as she grew up and treated her like a black sheep, but they are no where near as heinous as the lot of the series antagonists are.
Carden is responsible to mass murders, genocide and torture throughout the season, mainly targeting innocent villages, with him either overseeing or orchestrating each raid. King Cumber and King Uther are at war with eachother but for the most part keep their focus on eachothers armies, with the Paladin's persecuting the Kingdom's people. Cumber does get involved in a plan to murder refugees, but that was Carden's plan and part of a deal he made with Carden.
There's also a subplot involvement the Queen Regent having a child (Uther) kidnapped in the past and raised in the place of her stillborn son, and having anyone in the know murdered, but that's no where near reaching as the crimes Carden and his Paladins were involved in. We've got a backstory of a Celtic Goddess demanding child sacrifice from her people; Merlin himself has a dark past he's remorseful over were he took part in war and persecution of innocent people; and Guinevere is the ruthless leader of an army of bandits, but their actions are not exactly elaborated upon. They aren't however are given as much focus as the atrocities Carden and the people following him have. While the Pope is Greater-Scope Villain of this season and may have a bigger role in the next season, but for the most part he's disconnected from Carden's actions and plans, and only pays him heed if he finds Carden is making progress.
Edited by Beast on Jan 22nd 2021 at 8:24:48 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Well, today's the discussion date for Paper Mario: The Origami King, so it is time for me to reveal my thoughts on who counts... Which is nobody, nobody counts. King Olly, the Big Bad, is heinous enough, especially with his attempt to commit genocide on the Toads just because his creator, also a Toad, scribbled on his body, making him feel betrayed and hurt. However, once he is defeated, it's revealed that the scribble was NOT a insult, but rather a heartfelt message wishing Olly luck on being king, causing Olly to realize his mistake, shows remorse for everything he's done, and uses his last moments to help Mario and Olivia undo the damage he caused, so yeah, Olly doesn't count. The only other villain that could count is a Legion of Stationery member named Scissors, a literal pair of scissors, who is not only treated DEAD seriously, but is shown to be the most sadistic member of the group, slicing an untold amount of characters, mainly Bowser's minions, to pieces just for fun, it doesn't kill them, though it is implied that it eventually would based on Kamek's dialogue when Bowser Jr, a child by the way got sliced to pieces, but it does leave them in a sort of Fate Worse than Death scenario, and Scissors even uses their pieces to make an monstrous paper monster, all the while being fully aware of what's going on, and while he does give Mario a slight advantage at the start of his boss fight, it's mainly because he likes a challenge rather than giving Mario a fair fight. However, there are 2 factors that prevent me from E Ping him. First off, whether or not the thread will take him seriously. He is treated seriously, but he is a literal pair of scissors, so I’m not sure if you guys will take him seriously or not. Then there's the heinous factor, he IS pretty nasty for a kids' game, but compared to Shadow Queen, Dimentio, and even King Olly himself, I’m not sure I’d Scissors is heinous enough to count, especially when compared to Olly's attempted genocide. So yeah, in conclusion, unless someone convinces me to give Scissors a fair shot, no one counts, but still a pretty great game nevertheless in my opinion.
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tbh even beyond the reasoning you gave, its hard for me to take a villain that attacks Bowser's minions very seriously when Mario does the same thing all the time and there's plenty of Video Game Cruelty Potential in the game itself.
Edited by WaryHoglet on Jul 30th 2020 at 9:55:37 AM
Carden.
I'm legitimately shocked that Ivid V wasn't already up, BTW. Greyhawk is one of the D&D settings I'm completely cold on, but I've still had the impression for years that he was one of the game's most downright vicious evil overlords. It makes me wonder whether there's other characters from there that have been ignored.
Edited by nrjxll on Jul 30th 2020 at 11:57:31 AM
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And that makes me even more hesitate on E Ping Scissors. And even without that, I doubt that Scissors is heinous enough anyways, especially with Olly's ATTEMPTED GENOCIDE.
Edited by Michealthehero21 on Jul 30th 2020 at 9:59:21 AM

Also, a while ago someone tried to do Red Death Mask but got banned due to plagiarism. Would anyone mind if I tried to take a stab at it?