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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#222801: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:55:33 PM

Drafts please. They'll go next week.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#222802: Jul 26th 2020 at 7:20:45 PM

There apparently a lot of Marvel Podcasts out there, some free, some you have to pay for:

https://www.tor.com/2020/06/30/5-marvel-fiction-podcasts-to-fill-the-mcu-sized-hole-in-your-life/

There may be some keepers in some of these podcasts.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#222803: Jul 26th 2020 at 7:29:20 PM

Did we reach a consensus on the cutting?

[down]sounds good. Maybe we can just keep Dietrich until we can make a more cohesive opinion

Edited by nwotyzal on Jul 26th 2020 at 9:09:38 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#222804: Jul 26th 2020 at 7:44:39 PM

Hargrove, Cardinous and Krolock are definitely going. Nomura is staying. Dietrich is... idk, that one's a fucking mess.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#222805: Jul 26th 2020 at 8:03:09 PM

There was a majority voting against Dietrich to start, but then some of those people started flipping. A tally would be helpful.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#222806: Jul 26th 2020 at 8:10:14 PM

Since I didn't vote on them. Cut Cardinous, Krolock and Dietrich. Keep Nomura.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#222807: Jul 26th 2020 at 8:41:06 PM

[tup] Devlin and Nomura

[tdown] Hargrove

  • Macabre's "The Ted Bundy Song": Ted Bundy is a sadist who likes to kill women daily. Using his charm and good looks, Bundy lures his victims into his car and abducts them. Taking his prey to the woods, he lets them go so he can hunt them down and bash their heads in. Despite his rampage crossing state lines and claiming dozens of lives, Bundy refuses to admit his guilt even when on the electric chair.

Edited by DemonDuckofDoom on Jul 26th 2020 at 9:25:00 AM

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#222808: Jul 26th 2020 at 9:58:52 PM

Here is the tally on the Neverkind Saga candidates and calling it draconian would be an understatement. There are some votes are a bit muddled and I tried my best to count up all of them to the best of my ability and I may have misinterpreted some votes. Therefore, I've listed out the names of what everyone last voted on these candidates. If I made a mistake, feel free to point it out and I will correct it as quickly as possible. Apologies if I misinterpreted or missed anyone's vote:

  • Count Nicolai Gabriel von Krolock: 0 [tup]'s, 13 [tdown]'s (DemonDuckofDoom, 43110, DrUnknown, Kylotrope, Tyk5919, ACW, falcontalons, Libraryseraph, Ravok, miraculous, nwotyzal, Bullman, therealjackieboy), 3 abstains (MasterN, ImperialMajestyXO, SkyCat32)

  • Vladik Cardinous: 0 [tup]'s, 11 [tdown]'s (DemonDuckofDoom, 43110, DrUnknown, Tyk5919, ACW, falcontalons, Libraryseraph, Ravok, miraculous, nwotyzal, Bullman, therealjackieboy), 3 abstains (MasterN, ImperialMajestyXO, SkyCat32)

  • Wallace Malcolm Hargrove: 1 [tup]'s (Kylotrope), 8 [tdown]'s (DrUnknown, ACW, 43110, MasterN, miraculous, nwotyzal, DemonDuckofDoom, therealjackieboy), 2 abstains (ImperialMajestyXO, SkyCat32)

  • Dr. Sieglinde Nomura: 12 [tup]'s (DrUnknown, Tyk5919, nwotyzal, miraculous, G-Editor, ACW, Libraryseraph, Ravok, ImperialMajestyXO, DemonDuckofDoom, Bullman, therealjackieboy), 1 [tdown]'s (43110), 4 abstains (Kylotrope, falcontalons, MasterN, SkyCat32)

  • Dietrich Boehmer: 8 [tup]'s (Tyk5919, nwotyzal, miraculous, Ravok, ACW, ImperialMajestyXO, G-Editor, therealjackieboy), 8 [tdown]'s (DemonDuckofDoom, 43110, AustinDR, DrUnknown, Kylotrope, falcontalons, Libraryseraph, Bullman), 2 abstains (MasterN, SkyCat32)

  • This will be updated if any more people vote*

Edited by DrUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 11:25:33 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#222809: Jul 26th 2020 at 10:02:45 PM

[tup] to Dietrich if I haven't voted on him yet

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#222811: Jul 26th 2020 at 10:46:06 PM

Guess I’ll throw my hat into the ring finally.

Cut Krolock (even though I proposed him, heinous standard is what it is, and he’s got to go), Hargrove, and Vladik. Keep Nomura. Super duper weak [tup] for Dietrich.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Jul 26th 2020 at 10:55:23 AM

It's Spooky Month!
SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED
#222812: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:01:32 PM

Okay, so I just finished watching a 2013 action film that I had never seen before. It was good, but I was surprised to not find the villain listed. I checked discussion history, and the character was never really elaborated on, and what information was given I believe was incorrect. So I'm going to make a proposal so that, upvote or downvote, at least it was done properly.


What's the work?

Olympus Has Fallen is a 2013 action film about an attack on the White House by Korean terrorists, directed by Antoine Fuqua and starring Gerard Butler, Aaron Eckhart, Morgan Freeman and Rick Yune.


Who is Kang Yeonsak? What has he done?

One of the most wanted men in the world, Kang Yeonsak is a North Korean terrorist who lives for the superiority of his country and the devastation of all others, previously having attacked and blown up a British embassy. This time, however, his goals are more sinister.

Disguising himself as a member of South Korean special forces, Kang manages to accompany the Prime Minister of South Korea to a diplomatic meeting at the White House. He then has his men use a war plane to fly into Washington DC, shoot down the fighter jets, and begin opening fire on the populace below. When the plane is eventually shot down, they steer it into the Washington Monument. We later see some of the fallout of the attack on civilians, which leaves dozens dead and dozens more wounded, including a six-year-old girl.

Upon being informed of the attack, the President and the Prime Minister are taken to a secure bunker. Kang's men attack the White House, using suicide bombers to breach the front gates and having gunmen kill the dozens of armed forces and police trying to protect the house. Kang and his men in the bunker turn on the world leaders, kidnapping them all. Before cutting communications, Kang kills the Prime Minister with a shot to the head live for the government to see.

Kang's men take control of the White House, gunning down everyone inside and tearing the flag off the roof. Kang then makes his demands: he wants the United States military to pull out of Korea, as he believes that America should never have interfered with the Korean War. Additionally, he demands the codes to a program called Cerberus, which will remotely detonate all the nuclear devices in the United States. He holds Admiral Joseph Hoenig at knifepoint until he gives up his code, and personally beats Secretary of Defense Ruth Mc Millan to near-death until she gives up hers. However, knowing the president will never give up the third and final code, he plans on capturing the president's young son so that he may torture the boy in front of his father until he gives up the code.

When former Secret Service member Mike Banning sneaks into the White House and begins taking down Kang's men, Kang demands he be killed. Banning is able to find the president's son and get him out.

However, when the Army Chief of Staff General Edward Clegg sends helicopters to try and bring reinforcements, Kang and his men use high-tech stolen American guns to shoot down the entire squadron, sans one. As retaliation, Kang shoots the vice president dead. Kang then plans to kill the Secretary of defense, dragging her out by her hair and sending her outside to make her believe he is letting her go. As he lines up to shoot her in the back in front of the news cameras, Banning intervenes and Kang flees back into the bunker. Kang decides to fake his and the president's deaths; he dresses the remaining hostages as well as some of his own men in hoods and chains. He proceeds to load them onto a helicopter, then blows the helicopter up.

Kang hacks into the Cerburus system, bypassing the final code. He then rigs all of the nuclear devices in America to detonate in their silos, which he muses will "kill tens of millions". Banning makes his way to the bunker as Kang is trying to escape. Kang shoots the president, then engages in a knife fight with Banning. Though he injures Banning, Banning kills him with a blade to the skull. Even after Kang is killed, Banning has to deactivate Cerberus, and does so with only three seconds to spare.


Heinous standard

Most of Kang's men are arguably as vicious as he is, having no issues in opening fire on civilians and are eager to follow his plan. However, all of them are mostly nameless mooks that are following his orders. And even though they do most of the killing, it is under his orders and Kang kills quite a few people himself.


Mitigating factors

Okay, so the point that was brought up when this guy was first mentioned was that he loved his mother. When part of his backstory is revealed, they say that his father was executed by the North Korean government and his mother was killed by an American land mine on the border.

However, that is literally all the information we get. A minor character offhandedly remarks that his parents were killed. Kang never mentions, mourns, or acknowledges his parents in any way, nor does anyone ever suggest that he is doing this for revenge. All we get is "his parents were killed", and that is literally all the reference to them.

The only thing that he really has resembling a redeeming quality is that he believes that, for his country to be better, it must take over South Korea and America must be nuked. However, even his loyalty to his own country is in question, as he does not answer to the North Korean government, and he has no qualms about killing his own men, nor has any reaction other than annoyance when they are killed off.


Verdict

There are discussions worth having, but I feel confident in the points that I made, so I say [tup].

Edited by SumDumNerd on Jul 26th 2020 at 11:13:19 AM

Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#222813: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:08:54 PM

NGL...it's still presented as an issue for him in the film. Even if the backstory is told to us there...

Need to think. I mean, it's lazy writing to throw that out, don't get me wrong, but another character mentions "his mother was killed by an American landmine so now he wants revenge."

Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 26th 2020 at 11:12:07 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#222814: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:15:31 PM

I really can't ignore the fact his parents were killed and he's doing what appears to be taking revenge. Writing that off is how we had Hoffman from Saw listed even though he literally became a Serial Killer because his younger sister was killed.

SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED
#222815: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:16:12 PM

[up][up] That was my issue though, they never say he wants revenge, only that it happened. We don't know anything else: what his reaction was, if he was even with her, how old he was, what their connection was like... nothing. Only "his mother was killed by an American landmine", and the next thing in his history is "he blew up a British embassy".

I kind of took it as an Ivo Shador situation (he has a painting of his mother, and that's all the context we get about that). We know his parents were killed, and that's all the context we get about that.

Edited by SumDumNerd on Jul 26th 2020 at 11:19:08 AM

Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#222816: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:18:00 PM

His parents were killed, he's striking back, I think that can be inferred.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#222817: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:20:15 PM

Yeah, but it's presented in the film as a motive. It's a pretty straightforward action film, too.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#222818: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:22:40 PM

I brought up the Ivo Shador thing as a potential cut way back when he was being discussed. That argument doesn't sway me. Furthermore I don't think his desire to improve his country can be totally swept under the rug: the dude mentions he's out to give "millions of starving men, women, and children a chance at more than just subsistence" and that the only way to do that is to destroy America so they don't "intervene" again—of course he's not going to be involved with the North Korean government when they're committing such awful human rights abuses. Shooting his own men does not automatically mean he doesn't care about his entire country.

He's a looney and the film having such shitty writing means it's easy to see him as just a two-dimensional terrorist, but between the implication he loved his mother and the WIE overtones, no, I don't think Kang counts.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#222819: Jul 26th 2020 at 11:31:09 PM

[tdown] to Kang Yeonsak. I echo similar concerns that he may have genuinely loved his mother, especially since his demands for the American military to pull out of Korea does align with his Freudian Excuse, considering that his mother was killed by an American landmine. His crimes are Disproportionate Retribution, but his motive still seems genuine and intact.

CJCroen1393 Pokemon Trainer from The Western Interior Seaway (Ancient one) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
Pokemon Trainer
#222820: Jul 27th 2020 at 12:05:14 AM

I just found that someone gave Tokimeki PokéLive! and TwinBee its own Complete Monster page, which is editable and only has one entry, namely:

  • Even though he still has the Affably Evil traits the canonical version of him has, Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik, having upped his game, took in his nephew Natural "N" Harmonia Robotnik (Now known as N Harmonia Blair) and raised him to be his means of taking over the world and finally defeating his arch rival Sonic as well! In addition, he seems to be more willing to resort to murder on occasion, as seen in the "Ideal Hero" Side Story arc and is also in part responsible for the climate changed Crapsack World Classic Sonic visits in "Prophecy of Failure!?".
I'm guessing no one approved of this? I checked the history and the username coupled with the way the entry is written makes it sound like the user may simply be young/new and not really know the rules here, but if the page hasn't been approved, it should likely be cut.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#222821: Jul 27th 2020 at 12:13:37 AM

Very much unapproved. I've submitted it to the Cut List.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
DukeNukem4ever Since: Jan, 2017
#222823: Jul 27th 2020 at 1:26:20 AM

[tdown] to Kang. His excuse seems legitimate.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019

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