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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#222776: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:00:18 PM

Here are my stances on the above Neverkind Mythos candidates:

1. Dietrich Boehmer: Keeping my [tdown] for the reasons stated here, though I won't mind if he keeps.

2. Wallace Malcolm Hargrove: [tdown] him because he's outranked in heinousness by even Boehmer and Jacobs. He just seems like a benefactor to Jacobs' crimes, but does even less.

3. Vladik Cardinous: Keeping my [tdown] because his torture and plan isn't the most visceral depiction of it in the series and is thus outclassed in heinousness.

4. Count Nicolai Gabriel von Krolock: Keeping my [tdown] because his crimes aren't unique to him and, as Scraggle said, he's outclassed in heinousness of villains on the same resource level as him.

5. Dr. Sieglinde Nomura: Keeping my [tup]. If she had more resources than Mengele, I'd cut her, but since she's lower on the resource bar, she does enough to qualify.

Edited by DrUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 2:03:14 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#222777: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:03:39 PM

I say keep Boemer and Nomura, but I need to think on the others.

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#222778: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:09:20 PM

Gonna just sidestep the current character debate going on and suggest some more potholes for the HOA examples now that...that's started. I don't have ideas for Senkhara, but for Caroline:

  • For where it talks about her stealing Harriet's identity and destiny, we can use Hijacked Destiny
  • For for it mentions the other members of Team Evil lacking souls, The Soulless

Edit: Actually, for Senkhara we should pothole Nina's name to The Chosen One.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 26th 2020 at 2:19:20 AM

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#222779: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:17:20 PM

I just finished listened to a podcast based on the Marvels mini series and its main villain is Senator Harrington Byrd, an anti mutant politician who wants to send mutants to Vietnam (this was set during the 60s) and convinced the public the Galactus invasion was a hoax.

That is not enough to count, but the stinger for the final episode is Byrd murdering his assistant for seeing something she was not supposed to see and the series hints at different invaders coming to Earth soon.

Edited by Overlord on Jul 26th 2020 at 2:23:02 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#222780: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:27:15 PM

[tup]Nomura and Boehmer

[tdown]Everyone else

this whole thing is getting complicated

Edited by nwotyzal on Jul 26th 2020 at 2:30:08 AM

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#222781: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:29:38 PM

So I've been checking the Complete Monster entries for To Welcome Oblivion and I feel like they're too long. I've reduced the word count of all three of them. I've also fixed a couple of factual errors. What do you guys think?

Original:

  • Nyarlathotep is the ultimate architect of the plot's conflict and a wicked Outer God who delights in nothing more than madness and misery. As the herald of Azathoth, Nyarlathotep has plunged countless universes and trillions of lives into eternal agony within the grip of the Outer Planes, with entire planets and civilizations driven to destroy themselves under his influence. On Earth, Nyarlathotep arranges events like The Black Death and the rise of Adolf Hitler for his own amusement, and seamlessly arranges the events of the plot by setting up the rise of both Peter Grallman and Dr. Lilith Madison into their positions, the former by killing his young sister Marissa to drive Grallman to darkness. Arranging the opening of the Outer Gate while disguised as Madison's assistant Noah T. Trepaly, Nyarlathotep eventually betrays both Grallman and Madison, torturing the former into his possessed slave and unleashing the populace of the Outer Planes onto Rielington. Finally cutting loose in the climax, Nyarlathotep slaughters thousands of people in the most creatively depraved ways he can think of—such as tricking an cafeteria's worth of children into cannibalize themselves and forcing hundreds of the Old Brotherhood's members to become either breeding fodder or food for the eldritch monsters he summons—and attempts to plunge the entire universe into the Outer Planes, and finally gloats to Grallman as one last spiteful move that he'll resurrect Marissa and torture and rape her for centuries in Grallman's form to hurt the both of them. With a mile-long sadistic streak underscored by a psychopathic sense of humor, Nyarlathotep commits every atrocity he does purely to satisfy his sense of amusement, intent on one day betraying even the Outer Gods to torment the rest of the multiverse himself.
  • Dr. Lilith Madison is a callous sociopath of a scientist with an utter disdain for any life other than her own. Obsessed with finding out the secret to life at any cost, Madison turns to murder in some desperate attempt to stimulate herself—the deliberate suffocation of an infant she is trusted to take care of just one example—before eventually finding out the existence of a Deep One's carcass in the Antarctic. Killing her own research team to use the carcass for her own ends, Madison allies with the Old Brotherhood and its leader Grallman to kidnap hundreds of innocents and forcibly implant them with organs from the Deep One to spread Eldritch Energy across the world, more often than not resulting in the painful deaths of those forced to bear the transplants. Causing a series of bombings that lead to over 250 deaths to cover the actions of the psychopathic Rhett Talbot, Madison eventually unleashes Talbot onto Rielington to slaughter and rape as he will to take care of the Seratin sisters and their ally Robin Lockwood. Ultimately, Madison betrays Grallman and tries to open a gate to the Outer Planes in her attempt to find the secret to existence, fully willing to let the denizens of the Outer Planes pour out on Earth and ravage humanity in the process.
  • The aforementioned Rhett Talbot is a sadistic supervillain and the Arch-Enemy for Elara and Kaya Seratin. As a teenager, Talbot raped and molested several children while posing as a babysitter. After he was taken by the Old Brotherhood and experimented on, he used his newfound powers to murder his parents, and later conducted a series of massacres—one of which took place at a playground Kaya was playing at, where he cut off her arms and attempted to rape her—all for his own enjoyment. Several years later, Talbot goes after the Seratins again, where he murders several civilians and police officers in and around a restaurant. Talbot also participates in raping and killing members of the Brotherhood alongside the eldritch monsters in the breeding chamber, and when he's confronted by the Seratins again, he tries to kill them both. Even after Sera tells Talbot that Madison and Nyarlathotep are going to destroy the whole universe, Talbot coldly tells her that he doesn't care, moments before he tries to rape her.

Rewrite:

  • Nyarlathotep is a wicked Outer God who has plunged trillions of lives into eternal agony within the Outer Planes, with entire civilizations driven to destroy themselves under his influence. On Earth, Nyarlathotep arranges events like The Black Death and the rise of Adolf Hitler for his own amusement, and manipulates the events of the plot by setting up the rise of both Peter Grallman and Dr. Lilith Madison into their positions, the former by killing his young sister Marissa. Arranging the opening of the Outer Gate as Noah T. Trepaly, Nyarlathotep eventually betrays both Grallman and Madison, torturing the latter into his possessed slave and unleashing the populace of the Outer Planes onto Rielington. Nyarlathotep slaughters thousands of people—such as tricking an cafeteria's worth of children into cannibalizing themselves and forcing hundreds of the Old Brotherhood's members to become either breeding fodder or food for the eldritch monsters he summons—and attempts to plunge the entire universe into the Outer Planes, and gloats to Grallman that he'll resurrect Marissa and torture and rape her for centuries in Grallman's form. With a mile-long sadistic streak underscored by a psychopathic sense of humor, Nyarlathotep commits every atrocity he does purely to satisfy his sense of amusement, intent on one day betraying even the Outer Gods to torment the rest of the multiverse himself.
  • Dr. Lilith Madison is a callous sociopath of a scientist with an utter disdain for any life other than her own. Obsessed with finding out the secret to life at any cost, Madison turns to murder to stimulate herself, such as deliberately suffocating an infant under her care. Upon finding a Deep One's carcass, she kills her own research team to use it for her own ends and allies with the Old Brotherhood and its leader Grallman to kidnap hundreds of innocents and implant them with organs from the Deep One to spread Eldritch Energy across the world, resulting in the painful deaths of those forced to bear the transplants. Causing a series of bombings that lead to over 250 deaths to cover the actions of Rhett Talbot, Madison eventually unleashes him onto Rielington to slaughter and rape as he will to take care of the Seratin sisters and Robin Lockwood. Ultimately, Madison betrays Grallman and tries to open a gate to the Outer Planes to discover the secret of existence, fully willing to let the denizens of the Outer Planes pour out on Earth and ravage humanity in the process.
  • The aforementioned Rhett Talbot is the sadistic Arch-Enemy of Elara and Kaya Seratin. As a teenager, Talbot molested several children while posing as a babysitter. After he was taken by the Old Brotherhood and experimented on, he used his newfound powers to murder his parents, and later conducted a series of massacres—one of which took place at a playground Kaya was playing at, where he cut off her arms and attempted to rape her. Several years later, Talbot goes after the Seratins again, where he murders several civilians and police officers in and around a restaurant. Talbot also participates in raping and killing members of the Brotherhood alongside the eldritch monsters in the breeding chamber, and when he's confronted by the Seratins again, he tries to rape Elara and kill them both, uncaring that Nyarlathotep is going to destroy the universe.

Edited by DrUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 2:34:16 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#222782: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:30:35 PM

Done and done. BTW, for Senkhara, I assumed you met she was Tut's stepMOTHER and not stepFATHER? [lol]

[up] For the factual errors fine; as for length, check with Scraggle and Tyk, as I believe they did the original writeups.

BTW, we had an even 50 this week.

Edited by ACW on Jul 26th 2020 at 5:32:19 AM

WarJay77 It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000) from My Writing Cave (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
It's NaNo, Bay-beeee! (10,238/50,000)
#222783: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:31:44 PM

[up] I called her the stepfather? [lol] Yes, it's stepmother, lol. Not that kind of show unfortunately [lol]

Working on: Author Appeal | Sandbox | Troper Wall
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#222784: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:32:05 PM

I'm fine with the rewrites, but "cannabalize" needs to be changed to "cannabalizing" for Trepaly's writeup.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#222785: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:32:20 PM

Speaking of pothole suggestions, I got a few of my own:

And that's all I have for now.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jul 26th 2020 at 2:34:03 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#222786: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:33:21 PM

Whats a pridge ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#222787: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:33:26 PM

WarJay, yes: "In the past, she was King Tut's stepfather..." [lol]

I'll get to those pothole suggestions tomorrow.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#222788: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:34:43 PM

I do think if there is a second season of Marvels, Senator Byrd will be worth watching for.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#222789: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:34:51 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Done. Thank you for pointing that out.

Edited by DrUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 2:36:21 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#222790: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:36:14 PM

If Scraggle is good for the rewrites then so am I and if we're still on the subject of Dietrich? It really feels to me at least like his "unique" factors are really just slight twists on things other villains do: the slag pits? We've got Nomura's mass experimentation even if she goes about it differently and Jacobs' snuff ring. Ending the world? Sure his plan is gross but Thomas Nero—who is both on another planet from this trope and eons below Dietrich for resources—gives a crack at it, as do literally at least half a dozen other bad guys.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#222791: Jul 26th 2020 at 2:47:27 PM

To me, it seems as if the slag pits are a unique mixture of the snuff rings and the experimentations.

Now, if one wants to make the case he's outheinoused by Helen, that's an argument I'm willing to listen to; albeit, the 2 have different goals (Dietrich is a Nazi, while Helen wants to make the entire world a mass Body Horror orgy).

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#222792: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:03:45 PM

Right off the bat you've picked two characters with lower resources than Dietrich, so this is a problematic comparison when you try to say he counts on the basis of amalgamating two different things they do.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#222793: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:09:50 PM

Fair...though thinking about it more, unless I'm missing something, the snuff ring's bad, but don't the slag-pits entail mass rape by eldritch creatures?

EDIT: Also, he leads the Dirlewanger, so he's got the war crimes. Close, but I still say keep.

Edited by ACW on Jul 26th 2020 at 6:55:23 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#222794: Jul 26th 2020 at 3:58:42 PM

Anyways, something Lore brought up to me in MB I agree with... this business of putting "The aforementioned" at the start of entries. It seems silly, like we're trying to pretend it's an academic essay referencing back to a claim it made paragraphs before. Also it's not even consistently done... Madison is mentioned in Nyarly's and she doesn't get one but Talbot does? Can we just abolish it altogether?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#222795: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:10:35 PM

Eh, I could take it or leave it. Though I agree if it's done it should be consistent.

Edited by ACW on Jul 26th 2020 at 7:11:02 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#222796: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:12:20 PM

Uh leave it. It does seem unnecessary.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#222797: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:12:53 PM

I second the aforementioned motion to kibosh the aforementioned use of the word "aforementioned".

Not familiar with the Neverkind stuff, so I'm gonna sit this one out.

Addendum: Yes to Devlin if I didn't vote already.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jul 26th 2020 at 7:23:12 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#222798: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:15:54 PM

Honestly I agree with removing the aforementioned stuff

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#222799: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:21:01 PM

Agreed with removing the word "aforementioned."

Edited by DrUnknown on Jul 26th 2020 at 4:22:32 AM

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#222800: Jul 26th 2020 at 4:35:58 PM

Decided to trim down the entries of Thordak and Raisan from Critical Role. Here's their original entries

  • The ancient red dragon, Thordak the Cinder King, is the leader of the Chroma Conclave, a faction of chromatic dragons with the goal of destroying the system of order within the continent of Tal'Dorei and dividing it amongst themselves. Centuries ago, Thordak was the tyrannical ruler of the desert continent Marquet, regularly killing and eating those who lived there. When the city Ank'Harel began to rise to prominence, Thordak unsuccessfully attempted to destroy the city. Hiding in the seas to recover, Thordak destroyed any ships that passed by before being captured and empowered by the necromancer Opash. Thordak then killed Opash and took over the Island of Viscan before deciding to expand his rule. Destroying multiple towns and killing countless innocents within Tal'Dorei, Thordak was eventually sealed away within the Elemental Plane of Fire. When Raishan the Diseased Deceiver freed him, Thordak killed the majority of the Fire Ashari, and established the Conclave along with Raishan. When he discovers that fellow member Brimscythe intended to rule over territory that Thordak desired, Thordak planned to kill Brimscythe. Thordak later led the Chroma Conclave to attack numerous major cities within Tal'Dorei, costing thousands of lives. When Thordak discovers that residents of the floating archipelago, Draconia, are gathering information on the Conclave, he has Draconia attacked, causing the cities to fall into the ocean. When Vox Machina leads an army to take back control of Emon, the capital of Tal'Dorei, Thordak attempts to create a volcanic eruption to wipe out enemy and ally forces alike.
  • The ancient green dragon, the aforementioned Raishan the Diseased Deceiver, is a powerful sorceress and the most intelligent member of the Chroma Conclave. Prior to the story, Raishan murdered a group of followers of Melora, the Wildmother, for her own amusement. When a follower laid a deadly disease on Raishan before dying, Raishan pledged servitude to the aforementioned Thordak in exchange for him telling her how to cure her disease. Raishan later establishes the Chroma Conclave, making her responsible for the deaths and destruction caused by the faction. When Thordak was sealed in the Elemental Plane of Fire, Raishan disguised herself as an outcast girl to deceive the Fire Ashari, who guarded the portal to the plane, into taking her in. After living with them for years, Raishan found the opportunity to free Thordak, not caring that Thordak would wipe out the majority of the Fire Ashari. Later, Raishan and the Chroma Conclave destroy the city of Emon, Raishan kicking off the attack by murdering Sovereign Uriel and several council members. After coming to the conclusion that Thordak won't honor their bargain, Raishan betrays the Conclave and offers to help Vox Machina kill Vorugal and Thordak. While negotiating, she makes sure to mock Keyleth about the genocide of the Fire Ashari. When the party kills Thordak, Raishan steals Thordak's corpse and multiple dragon eggs, intending to reanimate the corpse of the former and raise the latter as minions for when she attacks a different continent in the future.

Here's the trimmed down versions.

  • The ancient red dragon, Thordak the Cinder King, is the leader of the Chroma Conclave, a faction of chromatic dragons with the goal of destroying the system of order within the continent of Tal'Dorei and dividing it amongst themselves. Centuries ago, Thordak was the tyrannical ruler of the desert continent Marquet, regularly slaughtering it's residents. When the city Ank'Harel began to rise to prominence, Thordak unsuccessfully attempted to destroy the city. Hiding in the seas to recover, Thordak destroyed any ships that passed by before being captured and empowered by the necromancer Opash. Thordak then killed Opash and took over the Island of Viscan before deciding to expand his rule. Klling hundreds of innocents in his conequest, Thordak was eventually sealed away within the Elemental Plane of Fire. When Raishan the Diseased Deceiver freed him, Thordak killed the majority of the Fire Ashari, and established the Conclave along with Raishan. Thordak then has the Conclave attack numerous cities in Tal'Dorei, costing countless lives. When Vox Machina leads an army to take back control of Emon, the capital of Tal'Dorei, Thordak attempts to create a volcanic eruption to wipe out enemy and ally forces alike.
  • The ancient green dragon, the aforementioned Raishan the Diseased Deceiver, is a powerful sorceress and the most intelligent member of the Chroma Conclave. Prior to the story, Raishan murdered a group of followers of Melora, the Wildmother, for her own amusement. When a follower laid a deadly disease on Raishan before dying, Raishan pledged servitude to the aforementioned Thordak in exchange for a cure. Raishan establishes the Chroma Conclave, making her responsible for the lives lost due to the faction. When Thordak was sealed away, Raishan disguised herself as an outcast girl to deceive the Fire Ashari into taking her in before freeing Thordak, not caring that Thordak would wipe out the majority of the Fire Ashari. Later, Raishan and the Chroma Conclave destroy the city of Emon, Raishan kicking off the attack by murdering Sovereign Uriel and several council members. After coming to the conclusion that Thordak won't honor their bargain, Raishan betrays the Conclave and offers to help Vox Machina kill Vorugal and Thordak. When the party kills Thordak, Raishan steals Thordak's corpse and multiple dragon eggs, intending to use them to help her attack a different continent in the future.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Jul 26th 2020 at 8:16:16 AM


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