During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Scarlet King. Doesn't have enough character from reading the lyrics
I noticed that problem as well before, but then most music candidates don't have much characterization either, so I figured maybe it's just a different standard for that medium and that it was acceptable.
Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 25th 2020 at 5:17:47 AM
Well that answers that.
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Corneo
Note: I know this was a part of my previous edited message (I thought I wrote it in my original message, but I guess I forgot to add it in by mistake, so I apologise there), but I feel this needs to be said seperately.
Okay, I now understand that music candidates need more direct characterization to count, even if it is a different medium. I apologize for the wasted effort post and I'll bring in a candidate with more meaningful characterization the next time it's from the medium of music.
Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 25th 2020 at 5:22:43 AM
Lizzid people!
It's fine. You're doing a good job with effort posts lately.
So pretty much a song can’t just list stuff, it has to give some amount of character to the subject.
Scarlet King
Lizzid people!
Of course.
Switching to Scarlet King
- David Bowie's The Man Who Sold the World: The unnamed narrator of "Running Gun Blues" is an American soldier waiting to go home after the US pulls out of The Vietnam War. Frustrated with this, the soldier sneaks out at night to kilk random people, soldier and civilian alike. He uses such varied methods as shooting, stabbing, bombing and bashing. Through this, the soldier seeks to "promote oblivion," out of nothing but sadistic racism.
I know it's super short, but the song itself is only 3:16. I'll bring up a quote later.
to the Scarlet King
The wifi here sucks
@duck, it should be kill not kilk
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
@AustinDR Thank you for the compliment and again, I promise that I'll do better with my future candidates.
Looking over the music candidates, I may have found a potential cut, specifically Ridley from Man On The Internet.
Mainly, he should be cut because the song doesn't add much new characterization to him. The Metroid manga already established him as a bloodthirsty sadist that has wiped out dozens of colonies and races, including Samus' own colony. The problem is that the song retreads on that same ground without adding meaningful to Ridley's character or crime career. While technically it's based on the Ridley theme from Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, all of Ridley's crimes from the song refer to the manga's events, so it's safe to assume that it's referring to the Metroid continuity and not Super Smash's. Plus, the story never references those events, giving further credence that it's meant to be based on the manga than on Super Smash Bros. Ultimate. Overall, the song faces the same problem of not adding anything meaningful to Ridley and thus I believe this incarnation of him should be cut.
Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 25th 2020 at 6:30:01 AM
Looking at the brief entry he's got I'm inclined to agree.
Cut Song!Ridley.
I disagree; to me, it seems like the lyrics are ambiguous enough that they could refer to the manga continuity, the game continuity, or neither.
Ridley
Here's that soldier quote:
Left generals squashed and stifled
But I'll slip out again tonight
'Cause they haven't taken back my rifle
For I promote oblivion
And I'll plug a few civilians"
It's a brief touch on Ridley... I don't see how a bit of ambiguity makes this unique enough to be its own version Imp.
Here is something i'm surprised people haven't discussed yet.
What is the Work?
Soldier of Fortune II: Double Helix is a sequel to the original Soldier of Fortune game and part of the trilogy of Soldier of Fortune games (first two games are canon, the third one is not, since it was made by a low budget comoany and has no connection to the other two games, aside from "freelance mercenary vs terrorism" thing). Made by Raven Software (before they became one of "Call of Duty Only companies"), the original game was inspired by a mercenary magazine Soldier of Fortune, which served as a basis for the trilogy. Soldier of Fortune II continues the story of John Mullins, a freelance mercenary, who works for the anti-terrorist organization called "The Shop" and battles the terrorists across the world. The first game has Mullins deal with the threat of the nukes in the hands of terrorist organization, the sequel has Mullins deal with bio-chemichal virus in the hands of another terrorist organization. This time, the organization apparently managed to get a mole inside "The Shop", which complicated things.
I have two candidates from this game, first is the true Big Bad of the story - Aaron Wilson.
Who is Aaron Wilson?
Not-so-Subtle Traitor within "The Shop", who acts as an Assistent Director, Aaron Wilson didn't liked the newfound "peace" between the nations, due to the fact that "war brings money and peace is bad for business" and decided to bring back Cold War again. To this end he used his old contacts in KGB and joined forces with Alexei Nachrade to create Prometheus, an organization that would develope bio and chemical weapons as well as viruses. Creating Romulus virus, Wilson immediatly has organization create a computer virus Remus, which would destroy all evidence of Romulus virus, which would make it impossible to creat an antidote to it. Later on, Wilson leaks all "The Shop" moves to Prometheus, making it harder for Mullins to fight them and then he and Nachrade forced a drug lord Manuel Vergara to sell Romulus virus to the Colombian rebel terrorist group La Fuerza del Dios by threatening his family and have that rebel group attack a village full of innocent people with that virus as a test, leading to many people dying horrible deaths and many left deadly sick to the point that they unable to walk and their skin is partially "melted off".
Later on, he and Nachrade try to smuggle more of that virus to the US, only for Mullins to destroy ships, leading to Wilson blowing up the secret bunker, under the shop, where Mullins take his orders from "The Shop" command, leading to Mullin's friend Taylor and several other people dying, fire threatening to spread to other buildings and Mullins other friend Sam nearly killed and sent into coma. When Wilson found out that Sam survived and has the data on Prometheus, he sended his organization to attack hospital in an attempt to kill both Sam and Mullins.
As Mullins manages to save the world leaders from being infected by Romulus virus, Wilson abandons all pretense and has his organization to fully attack "The Shop's" base, killing many people, before he personally sadistically kills Dr. Dmitry Sestrogor (whom he and Nachrade forced to work for them before to create said virus) with the virus right before Mullins, when he announces his goal of bringing back Cold War between nations this way: "Without the Cold War both sides have grown old and fat. I simply put things back the way they were. For that, some might even call me a Patriot!" and tries to kill Mullins from a helicopter, only for Mullins to kill him by destroying said helicopter.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
None. The guy is pure greedy asshole through and through.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
The heinous standard is pretty high, with the villains of the first game being willing to launch nukes to destroy cities and taking people hostage and executing them, but Wilson stands out with the whole biological virus thing, which kills people in slow and agonizing way (we see it in the village level), which he responsible for developing and he also has the rebel faction use it on an full village of innocent people, before he planned to use it en masse on world leaders and used it also on a doctor, whom he forced to create it, while he also planned to plunge US and Russia into a "Cold War" again, solely so he could profit. He, along with Nachrade, also responsible for leading their organization to kill many innocent people (like in the hospital level, the airport level and even in his attack on "The Shop") and him being personally revolting in relation to Mullins by being responsible for the deaths of many of his friends also adds him heinous points.
Final Verdict?
What do you think?
Lizzid people!
Don't see the argument for ambiguity there. Destroying life on planets pretty much references the space colony from the manga. IIRC, that was even mentioned in the initial EP.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Talking about that one.
Edited by AustinDR on Jun 25th 2020 at 6:51:11 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but if you're talking about K-2L, didn't Ridley destroy it in the games too?
Ultimate Moral Compass
Aaron
Showtime!
to Aaron and the soldier quote
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jun 25th 2020 at 6:50:32 AM
to Aaron Wilson and the unnamed soldier quote.
@ImperialMajesty While it doesn't explicitly mention it to be a part of the manga's continuity, the events depicted by the song clearly mirror that continuity's characterization of Ridley.
Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 26th 2020 at 1:39:30 AM
Yeah, seems like the issue is characterization.