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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#218326: Jun 20th 2020 at 1:29:57 PM

[tup] to Roderick.

@Nattes: Not feeling the image.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#218328: Jun 20th 2020 at 1:35:46 PM

Alright, so here goes.

What is the Work:

I think anybody around here is at least familiar with the Arrowverse due to hearing about it. Legends of Tomorrow, the by far most lighthearted and zany series of the bunch, has concluded it's 5th Season. The Big Bad Duumvirate, the Fate Sisters, don't count as they are a pair of legitimate Well-Intentioned Extremist's who believe humanity can't be trusted with The Evils of Free Will. I thought that no character in this Season would qualify, until somebody messaged me about one Villain of the Week. I'm still not sure, but it doesn't hurt to try. So here goes, meet Kathy Meyers.

Who is Kathy and what has she done?

Kathy Meyers is (as her name and costume indicates) a hommage to 70s slasher villains. She is the "Prom Night Slasher", who is initially hinted by the episode to be her son, Freddy, but he only took the fall for his mom and was executed on her behalf.

But lets start from the beginning: Kathy has an untreated mental issue. Which one is never specified, but it manifests through an extreme possessiveness of her son, bordering on Yandere levels. And yeah, since he is....well her son, it comes with a pretty creepy subtext. She basically saw every person who got close to him as a threat to herself, who would "steal" him from her.

When being invited to her son's prom, she already went there in a bad mood, but she snapped when Freddy (a regular bullying victim) was cruelly pranked by the other kids. She then put on her costume and massacred 7 out of the 8 kids who pranked him. Freddy, as was mentioned above, took the fall for her and was executed 15 years later. The stress and grief of witnessing the execution caused her to have a fatal heart attack.

Many years later, she was resurrected as a superpowered "Encore" by Astra Logue, alongside many other inhabitants of hell, waking up immidiately after her death in 2004. Her first victim after coming back is the coroner. More bloodthirsty than ever, she goes to the Highschool Reunion to keep killing. Using her new telekinetic powers to trap everybody inside the building, she terrorizes her prey and slowly picks them off one by one, brutally killing several people, among them the sole survivor from 15 years ago, Tiffany, and Mick Rory's old flame Ali. Sara, Mick, and Ava then decide to hold her off as good as they can while the rest travels to the past to try and change Freddy's live (whom they still think of as the killer).

In this new, altered timeline, the Legends manage to save the Prom Night for Freddy, who isn't humiliated and even manages to get together with Tiffany. Kathy however still doesn't wants to share him and attacks his group of new friends. She then tells Freddy while doing so that she is doing all of this just out of love for him. But when he rejects her reasoning and declares her insane, she attacks him too. Luckily, Behrad arrives in time and blasts her unconscious, leading to her getting arrested for attempted murder.

Meanwhile in the present, Kathy has successfully killed Mick and prepares to finish off Sara and Ava too, but then the changes in the timeline kick in and everything is reset, culminating in a happy ending for Freddy and his friends.

Does she have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

She obviously has some serious mental issues. However, the troper who messaged me was of the opinion that , while she's acting violent and illogical, she seemed pretty lucid and aware of what she was doing.

There is also the relationship with her son. In my opinion, some clear (mad) love is at play, hell she even had a heart attack out of grief when he was executed. The counterargument to this was that she could have stopped the execution from happening simply by telling the authorities the truth of what happened at any point, during the 15 years he was detained.

Then there is also the fact that she was trying to kill him in the revised timeline when he rejected her.

Does she meet the Heinousness Standard?

In this regard, I think she is just fine. In the original timeline, she (or rather officially her son as the "Prom Night Slasher") was pretty infamous for her bloody deed in-universe. And after getting her powers, she becomes even worse. She enjoys terrorizing, stalking and brutally killing her prey, be it by crushing them inside a locker, setting them on fire, using knives etc

Most of her victims were also high school kids, I think that makes her stand out just fine.

She has way less ressources than pretty much all the other monsters of the verse, except maybe Anarky, but does the most out of them.

Final Verdict?

Honestly, I don't know. Some of the counterarguments are good, but I still think that the foundational motive of her killing spree is the affection towards her son, after all. Sure, she tries to attack him too after he rejects her, but she has some genuine mental issues.

And I think her getting a heart attack after his execution is just too ambiguous to make her fully qualify.

But please, discuss. Maybe I'll change my opinion.

Edited by Forenperser on Jun 20th 2020 at 10:51:59 AM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#218329: Jun 20th 2020 at 1:45:38 PM

Yes to Roderick. No to Kathy. I believe she truly loved her son. I mean she had a heart attack when he died. I can't see that and vote her up. Great EP and episode though.

Also would anyone mind if I look into Power Rangers Hyperforce? I mean it's been a few years since the season ended and we haven't heard anything about a second one. I would be willing to collab.

Edited by Bullman on Jun 20th 2020 at 3:50:50 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#218331: Jun 20th 2020 at 1:57:54 PM

  • The Changelings Have a King: Prince Blueblood is the spoiled nephew of Celestia who becomes king of the Changelings. After he and Chrysalis marry, he begins making plans to take over Equestria and gain revenge on Rarity. To that end, he starts isolating her in order to make her dependent on him. After moving to Ponyville, he kidnaps ponies to feed to his monstrous spawn and stirs drama between Spike and Crescendo—Rarity's former lover—to the point that Spike nearly kills him. After being found out, he unleashes his horde of flesh-hungry Changelings on Ponyville, watching with a smile as innocent ponies get violently ripped apart. After his offspring are killed, he brushes off their deaths and simply tries to kill Rarity outright, only for Spike to take the shot. He then attempts to kill his aunts in an attack that ends up killing Trixie and Shining Armor, and then drains a mortally wounded Chrysalis of all the love he gave her before leaving her to die. Even after being defeated, he shows no remorse when asked if he has any regrets; he simply states he regrets not killing everyone sooner.
  • Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles fanfic series (story 1; story 2; story 3; story 4; story 5): Skynet is a malevolent A.I. that turned against humanity, thinking that they were inferior to itself. Skynet wipes out billions of humans by initiating Judgement Day, where it unleashed its nuclear arsenal throughout the world. To save itself from impending defeat from the Resistance, it sends numerous Terminators in the past to kill Resistance leader John Connor. When these efforts fail, Skynet uploads a copy of itself to a physical form and sends it to the past to directly assassinate Connor and upload itself to the internet, where it can initiate Judgement Day earlier. After capturing Connor, Skynet also plans to upload itself to an exoskeleton resembling Connor and then kill him in said form to both find irony in his death and to emotionally harm his friends. When Connor escapes and combats it, Skynet uploads a virus to Cameron to make her kill Connor, in which Skynet halts her before the finishing blow to gloat about its victory and kill Connor itself. After its plan is foiled, Skynet begins sending Terminators to assassinate Cameron to spite Connor and steals a nuclear bomb from the past to initiate an earlier nuclear war to wipe out humanity and incite the creation of itself much earlier.
  • Code Lyoko: Beyond: XANA keeps all of its canon crimes and goes farther. Upon surviving the events of the original series by faking its death, XANA grew in power and decided to send the Scyphozoa after Aelita and William in order to remove their Keys of Lyoko, preventing them from stopping its attacks. On the meanwhile, XANA repeatedly attempts to kill the Lyoko-warriors by crashing a school bus because Jérémie, Ulrich and Aelita were inside—killing two students, Théo and Laura Gauthier in the process—and brainwashing the survivors and use them to try to kill Yumi and William, spreading a deadly disease in the entire city and nearly killing Yumi, trying to destroy the Supercomputer while the team was in the Digital Sea in order to leave them inside it forever and attacking Kadic Academy with an army of monsters in order to find and kill the Lyoko-warriors, intent on killing any innocents in its path.
  • Code Lyoko/My Little Pony: Equestria Girls crossover Code Lyoko: EG: XANA far surpasses his canon counterpart in sadism. Originally a multi-agent program created by Sombra, XANA gained sapience through the multiple Returns to the Past and rebelled against him to fulfill his ambitions of godhood in Lyoko and the real world. Trapped by Celestia in the supercomputer for a decade alongside Sombra's daughter Fluttershy, XANA regularly launches various attacks against her and her friends the Lyoko 7 upon being revived, not hesitating to target or torture innocents or the Lyoko 7's loved ones in the process. XANA uses various strategies, first attempting to kill Fluttershy to prevent the Lyoko 7 from stopping his attacks, then corrupting Rarity in order for her to join him willingly, then similarly corrupting Luna, before taking over Twilight's body and forcing her to watch as he uses it against her friends and finally create the Dazzlings in order for them to join the Lyoko 7, help them create an anti-XANA program, and taking it away from them when they need it the most. A raging storm of malice and spite beneath his polite, seductive behavior, XANA left the heroes traumatized even after their victory.
The Lord of the Rings
  • Hideous Treachery: Sauron is the Dark Lord of Mordor who has regained his physical form after reacquiring the One Ring. After capturing Frodo and Sam, Sauron plans to turn them into his servants by first showing their allies being killed by his own forces and then killing Gaffer Gamgee in front of Sam when he refused to submit. He then locks them in his dungeon and has them tortured until Sam is killed and Frodo seemingly submits to him. Afterwards, Sauron conquers the rest of Middle-earth, in which he enslaves its inhabitants, slaughters the hobbits and dwarves under his reign, and institutionalizes education that brainwashes children into idolizing Sauron himself.
  • Where the Shadows Lie: Sauron is the Second Dark Lord who threatens to conquer all of Middle-earth. After capturing the Fellowship of the Ring, he takes the One Ring from Frodo and locks them in his dungeon to be tortured and kept as his "trophies", killing Samwise Gamgee in the process. He also betrays Saruman and has him tortured to death. To fully secure his control over Middle-earth, Sauron orders his Orcs to raid various Elven cities to capture Elrond and Galadriel to acquire two of the three rings that were given to the Elves, with said attack destroying many buildings and killing countless elves. He also subjects Elrond and Galadriel to the same torturous fate as the Fellowship for his own sadistic enjoyment. Later, Sauron offers to release the Fellowship if the bearer of the third Elven ring surrenders themselves, but when Gandalf takes this offer, Sauron breaks his vow and proceeds to capture and torture Gandalf as well. When the Last Alliance lays siege to his fort, Sauron prepares to publicly execute the Fellowship and the other prisoners to break their spirits.

  • Gorpo, from the final arc, "The Fall of Eternia", is a former member of the overlords of Trolla who has gone rogue due to his desire to rule the universe alone. After being banished to the Unnamed Dimension, Gorpo uses the alias of the "Unnamed One" to take control of the Snake Men and attempt to use them to free himself. After King Hssss and his Snake Men were defeated and failed to free him, Gorpo sent his Revenge Squad through a crack in the space-time continuum to Trolla and has them decimate most of the world, transforming it into a barren wasteland. Using the opportunity to free himself during a Horde attack on Eternia, Gorpo immediately tasked his minions to locate the ancient Sword of Power, while taking his time to free King Hssss from his banishment, only to kill him for his failure. As he acquires the magical tablet, Gorpo tries to destroy the whole planet by breaking it in half.
  • He-Man/ThunderCats: Mumm-Ra is an evil servant of the Ancient Spirits of Evil who aided their attack on Eternia, leading many monsters to attack the great city of Eternos and personally impaling Prince Adam, sadistically mocking him. Joining forces with Skeletor, Mumm-Ra helped him enslave his former masters, making them spread death and destruction around the planet, openly sharing Skeletor's plan to conquer the world and transform it into a horrific place, where the opposition will be brutally executed and the rest of the population enslaved. Transforming with Skeletor into the powerful Mumm-Ator and trying to take over the multiverse, Mumm-Ra wanted to help Skeletor to create this future for the whole multiverse.
  • He-Man/ThunderCats & Injustice vs. Masters of the Universe: Skeletor is a vile warlock and the most relentless enemy of He-Man. Discovering the existence of another universe, Skeletor has made a contact with the Ancient Spirits of Evil, having them bring their world closer to Eternia, causing a cataclysm that destroyed part of the great city of Eternos, before he captured their agent Mumm-Ra and transformed him into a liquid, which he drank, despite Mumm-Ra still being alive and sapient. Later bringing Mumm-Ra back to his original form, Skeletor joined forces with him, enslaving the Ancient Spirits of Evil and having them spread chaos and destruction all over Eternia, killing thousands. Desiring to transform Eternia into a horrific place, where all those who oppose him will die and the rest of the population will be enslaved, Skeletor transformed himself and Mumm-Ra into Mumm-Ator, before he tried to take over the multiverse. Failing at that and being banished, Skeletor starts pretending to serve Darkseid and the brutal version of Superman, using them to get his way into Castle Grayskull again, while assisting Superman in upholding his tyrannical regime and revealing to Darkseid that the answer to Anti-Life Equation was always in Castle Grayskull, leading to Darkseid attacking Eternia, slaughtering thousands and brainwashing thousands more.
  • Count Marzo is a vile and powerful sorcerer, who attacked the Hall of Wisdom in the past in his pursuit of power. After being defeated by Captain Miro, grandfather of Prince Adam, and transformed into a hideous looking dwarf with all his powers being removed from him and placed in a magic crystal, Marzo planned his revenge. Tricking Mekaneck into retrieving the crystal for him, allowing him to get back all his powers, Marzo immediately attacked the kingdom of Eternia and knocked everyone out. When He-Man and Mekaneck confronted him, Marzo gleefully turns the magic crystal into a time bomb, which he attempts to use to destroy the whole kingdom of Eternia with all the residents inside.
He-Man and the Masters of the Multiverse
  • Demon-Wizard Skeletor, from the first issue, trapped Prince Adam and Sorceress in Castle Grayskull in the very first page of the comic. Skeletor then forces them into a Sadistic Choice: If they refuse to let him into Castle Grayskull, he will unleash the Moon of Cataclysm upon the great city of Eternos, which would reduce the city to ashes and kill Adam's father, King Randor, and thousands of innocent people; or they let him in the Castle, and he promises to do something far worse. When Prince Adam transformed into He-Man and goes to face him, Skeletor wonders about who among Adam's friends he will torture first. Despite appearing only on first few pages, this version of Skeletor proves himself to be the vilest Skeletor of the entire comic.

Edited by ACW on Jun 21st 2020 at 11:10:54 AM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#218332: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:05:24 PM

For the sake of being more smooth, can i propose to change "Tricking Mekaneck into retrieving the crystal for him, allowing him to get back all his powers, which he used to attack kingdom of Eternia and knock everyone out." to "Tricking Mekaneck into retrieving the crystal for him, allowing him to get back all his powers, Marzo immediatly attacked kingdom of Eternia and knocked everyone out."

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#218333: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:05:55 PM

[tup] to Demon-Wizard Skeletor, Raka and Roderick. No to Kathy.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#218334: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:12:44 PM

Someone removed joker from YMMV.Harley Quinn 2019

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#218335: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:13:50 PM

Some pothole suggestions:

And that's all I can think of right now.

By the way, I think XANA's position on CM Incarnations Per Character might need to be updated, because IIRC, it has five now.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#218336: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:14:55 PM

Okay, here's a weird one...my own Murakami:

What's the work?

Kafka on the Shore Quoth the tropes page?

"d. The first is about fifteen year-old "Kafka" Tamura who runs away from home in order to avoid fulfilling an oedipal prophecy. The second follows Nakata, a mentally slow old man who has the ability to talk to cats, as he gets dragged into a journey across Japan running parallel to Kafka's own. It begins realistic enough, but soon takes a turn for the surreal and it becomes clear that neither will be having a normal journey."

So, let's talk a mysterious villain from Nakata's storyline: Johnnie Walker.

who is Johnnie Walker?

Yeah, that's a good question. Johnnie Walker is a man who's been around for a while. He names himself after the whiskey, walks around the place...and his goal in life? Destruction. Now, in Nakata's plot arc? Cats are sapient and magical, and their souls possess a magic. So Johnnie Walker captures them, tortures them and carves them apart, beheading them, slitting their guts out and takes their souls to make his special flute. He's killed many cats, all sapient, and binds their souls together with intention of making his magic flute.

So what will he do then? Play that flute to kill humans, draw out their souls, flay and stitch them together to make an even bigger and better flute, one with which he will kill even more people, creating lute after flute until he has enough to perhaps anniilate the universe itself. Now, Nakata is understandably freaked the hell out, but moreso when Johnnie Walker kidnaps the cats he' befriended. Before Nakata, Johnnie Walker gleefully kills multiple cats, mocking him all the while, and coming to Nakata's personal friends.

Nakata snaps and stabs Johnnie Walker, who dies as was his plan...becoming a dark soul to possess Nakata until the old man guides him to the 'entrance stone,' a sort of rock t hat holds a key to parallel realities which Johnnie Walker will proceed to infect and maybe even destroy the world when he makes a flute big enough.

Now, in the epilogue things go to a third protagonist named Hoshino. Nakata dies by the Entrance Stone and Johnnie Walker escapes, going for it...Hoshino is able to seal the stone off and finally destroy Johnnie Walker in the form of a slimy white worm, saving the world.

Mitigating Qualities?

This book is fucking weird with all the magical realism and unexplained elements, but...okay, the cats are living, sapient magical beings and Johnnie Walker happily tortures and kills them in an attempt to seek ways to kill more and more innocent people all the while, plotting to eventually see maybe even the universe wiped out. This much is certain and the end indicates that the entire world is in danger from his machinations.

Conclusion?

One of the most unconventional I've ever done, but....I'm saying yes to Johnnie Walker.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#218337: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:16:18 PM

[tup]Johnny walker, black labell.

Also wtf.....

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#218340: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:23:19 PM

Yes to Boris, Demon-Wizard Skeletor, Raka, Johnnie Walker, and Roderick.

Abstain on Usurna.

No to Kathy.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#218341: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:30:43 PM

Made the change and added the potholes. Yes to Johnnie Walker. "This bad guy kills sapient cats to make a flute, which he uses to kill people to make bigger flutes, and is eventually killed by a new protagonist in the epilogue, while he himself is a giant white worm." WTF??

Edited by ACW on Jun 20th 2020 at 5:32:16 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#218342: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:30:46 PM

[tup] Johnnie Walker. Can I have whatever Murakami’s on when he wrote this?

It's Spooky Month!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#218343: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:33:00 PM

Uh guys Harley quinn joker. He just got deleted from the ymmv page.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#218344: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:33:29 PM

[up]I added him back, stating in my edit reason to consult the thread before deleting examples.

Edited by falcontalons on Jun 20th 2020 at 2:36:51 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#218345: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:33:40 PM

Yeah, restore him, and discussion will commence at the conclusion of the season.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#218346: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:37:22 PM

[[tup] To Roderick and Walker

[tdown] To Kathy and the Duke of Owls

Edited by Libraryseraph on Jun 20th 2020 at 5:39:26 AM

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#218347: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:44:22 PM

Yes to Walker. WTF did i just read?

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#218348: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:58:21 PM

[tup] to Lord Roderick Chauzec and Johnnie Walker.

As the one who suggested her, I'll give a [tup] to Kathy Myers. Honestly I can't see any affection in anything she does.

She goes on a killing spree because her son wants to go to prom rather than spend one evening with her (and its got nothing to do with him being humiliated whilst at it, she never knew that), then after he's executed for crimes she committed she goes on a rampage blaming them when she could have stopped her execution at any point over fifteen years (heck its entirely possible she manipulated his vulnerable state to take the fall for her in the first place). And the second he rejects her, her literal first response is to try to kill him even declaring "then this is for the best" as she does.

She's obsessed with Freddie certainly, but it comes across more she wants to possess him not that she in anyway cares about him as a person.

Edited by MGD107 on Jun 20th 2020 at 3:05:07 AM

KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#218349: Jun 20th 2020 at 2:59:37 PM

[tup] Walker, the guy who wants to kill everyone with flutes.........

"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"
SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#218350: Jun 20th 2020 at 3:15:30 PM

I have briefly returned for a candidate, and there is a funny story here.

I watched through the final arc of Naruto anime to see if they made Generic Doomsday Villain Kaguya Ōtsutsuki count as a CM. Turns out they made her more sympathetic by giving her a tragic backstory with complex motivation. However, the backstory filler also gave way to a candidate that I did not expect at all.

Who is Indra?

Indra Ōtsutsuki was the elder son of Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki, the Sage of Six Paths, and the ancestor of the Uchiha Clan. In contrast to his younger brother, Asura, Indra was studious and talented, quickly mastering the art of Ninshū (the predecessor of Ninjutsu), and became respected by his village because of that. Although he Used to Be a Sweet Kid, Indra was tempted by Black Zetsu into tapping deeper into power, leading him to awaken the Sharingan in order to save Asura from a giant boar. As he grew older, Indra grew more withdrawn and harsh, focusing on power above all else, believing that a society ruled by power to be an ideal society. Hagoromo was planning on choosing a successor to as the leader of Ninshū, and it seemed obvious that Indra would be it.

What does he do?

Indra started becoming extremely and overly lawful, to the point where he imprisoned a villager who used Asura cut down trees to sell for medicine simply because it wasn't approved, but blamed Asura for getting tricked. Later, Indra and Asura where tasked to help two different villages whose people were being poisoned by water from the remains of the Divine Tree. While Asura united the villagers into digging a well to find their own water source, Indra used his powers to find the water himself, believing that he didn't need any help and that the villagers would never reach a decision. After Indra left, the villagers fought each other over the water, destroying the village.

Because of this action, Asura was chosen as Hagoromo's successor instead of Indra, much to the latter's anger. Indra and his two friends left, and when the two friends vowed to support Indra no matter what, Indra murdered them to obtain the Mangekyō Sharingan. Indra then proceeded to attack the village in order to kill Asura and take his title. When the other villagers tried to intervene in the battle, Indra decided to kill them as well. However, Asura successfully fought him off with the help of the villagers, and Indra fled, humiliated.

Over the next many years, Indra began gathering an army, teaching his followers his own version of Ninshū, called Ninjutsu, that would be used to wage war instead of keeping peace. Appearing to his father on his deathbed, he vowed that he would keep on fighting to destroy both Ninshū and the peace that Hagoromo believed in, and that he would reincarnate until Asura, his decendents, and his followers were wiped from the planet, to which Asura made clear that he would also reincarnate in order to hold him off. And with that, Indra waged war with Asura, resulting in countless casualties on both sides, and even after their deaths, the wars would not stop. Indra's chakra would reincarnate as a new person to continue the fighting, and Asura's chakra reincarnated as well to oppose him.

Freudian Excuse?

While Black Zetsu helps shape his character, there is no tragedy that affects Indra. He just happens to grow from a sweet child to a prideful man.

Redeeming Qualities?

Once, he used to love his family. Slowly, that love was lost, until he eventually tried to kill them. He just threw it all away for power.

He claims to want peace. His plan is to rule through power alone as a tyrant. His behavior does not sell anyone on good intentions, and in the end his motive is spite.

However, there is one part that is truly questionable. When he kills his friends for the Mangekyō Sharingan, he sheds a tear and apologizes to them in the moment, showing that he did genuinely feel grief at the time. When he looks back on it later, without a hint of remorse he says is that when he loses those close to him, his Sharingan evolves. After that, he shows absolutely no regret, and instead becomes a sadist for the sole purpose of spiting his father's choice. By the end of it all, he loves no one and cares for no one, viewing it as a weakness.

Heinousness?

Indra's crimes throw the whole ninja world into perpetual war. As bad as Madara, Obito, and Kaguya are, they had the Ten Tails backing them. Black Zetsu was seemingly immortal and had plenty of time to commit atrocities. Indra doesn't have that, yet he manages to intentionally ruin the world for future generations.

Other mitigating factors?

Black Zetsu may have manipulated him, but he did so by subtly guiding him rather than flat out tricking him or forcing him to do anything. Indra makes his own choices, and in the end chose to turn evil on his own.

Verdict?

What do you guys think?


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