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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#217701: Jun 15th 2020 at 8:06:26 PM

[up][up] 4th, actually. Two versions of SkyNet from comic book crossovers also qualify.

[up] IIRC, it was because there was no indication Sosa knew there were kids in the car. Not sure about the other guy, though.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jun 15th 2020 at 8:07:12 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#217702: Jun 15th 2020 at 8:08:12 PM

I found this under Shan Yu's character page

  • Benevolent Boss: Surprisingly enough he's quite respectful toward his army. He constantly praises their abilities, never treats them harshly, and is quite outraged when the majority of them are killed in an avalanche. He even politely declines one of his generals when they suggest avoiding the Chinese army. It makes sense when one takes his Genius Bruiser tendencies in mind and remember that an army that hates its leader isn't an army that will function well. Averted, however, in one deleted scene: after the Huns have ransacked a village, one of them finds a small bird in a cage, still alive, and smuggles it into his clothing. Shan Yu finds him moments later after asking the Huns if anything at all in the village was still alive. He releases the bird, remarking, "all creatures should be given a chance to live free, but freedom has its price" as his falcon kills the bird and he stabs the man, turning it into a Badass Boast about what they're going to do to the Emperor of China.

Do you think this is just pragmatism and he probably only sees the army as a means to an end?

[up]Like I said, if I'm not mistaken, and I was

[up][up]What Imperial said

Edited by nwotyzal on Jun 15th 2020 at 8:09:06 AM

NJRhino Since: May, 2020
#217703: Jun 15th 2020 at 8:25:24 PM

[tup]Corvin, Graul, Skynet, Phantom

[up][up] Wasn't the other Scarface guy cut for his deeds being offscreen?

Edited by NJRhino on Jun 15th 2020 at 11:27:14 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#217704: Jun 15th 2020 at 8:30:44 PM

I forget why he was cut but I think we're waiting for someone to give the game a second look.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#217706: Jun 15th 2020 at 8:39:50 PM

Yeah, he's been discussed from basically every angle imaginable and very conclusively decided as a keeper (honestly I don't really get why he's so contentious but whatever).

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#217707: Jun 15th 2020 at 8:40:41 PM

[up][up][up]I believe that someone, perhaps Lighty, said that Sosa was still insufficiently heinous in the game.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 15th 2020 at 11:41:40 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#217708: Jun 15th 2020 at 8:52:53 PM

Could someone else please do the images on the Dick Tracy page? I was only suggesting them and not actually volunteering. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#217709: Jun 15th 2020 at 8:54:30 PM

[up]Next time, it is better to have concrete suggestions, just saying.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#217710: Jun 15th 2020 at 8:57:39 PM

@nwotyzal If you're going to conquer China with an army, you best ensure that they are treated well so they can actually do their job effectively. Plus, he didn't really mourn for the loss of his army as much as he is angry that he could no longer burn the palace to the ground anymore.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#217711: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:02:13 PM

[up]So he was treating them well for his own gain, got it. Should I at the very least change the (benevolent boss) entry if not outright cut it?

Edited by nwotyzal on Jun 15th 2020 at 9:06:46 AM

DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#217712: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:07:10 PM

One has to remember Sosa is a drug lord. He doesn't really do anything that really stands out for someone in his position.

RIP KissAnime.
Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#217713: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:09:20 PM

[up][up] I think there should be a new trope for villainous boss who cares about the well-being of their men as a subtrope for Pragmatic Villainy. The actual trope suggests that the boss has to be actually kind to his subordinates, which doesn't really match for villainous bosses.

But until such trope is defined, I suggest cutting it or put it under Pragmatic Villainy. Actually, put it under Pragmatic Villainy since Shan Yu doesn't have that trope in his page.

Edited by Shadao on Jun 15th 2020 at 9:12:04 AM

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#217714: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:12:56 PM

[up][up][up] I wouldn't cut it, but just edit it to clarify that he only treats his minions well to keep his army strong enough to conquer China. You could also maybe add that his outrage at the loss of his army is from losing his chance to conquer China, not necessarily out of affection for his men.

DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#217715: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:14:40 PM

[up][up] That's just The Same, but More Specific.

Edited by DelphineTheDelphox on Jun 15th 2020 at 9:15:35 AM

RIP KissAnime.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#217716: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:17:23 PM

Yes to Graul, Skynet and Phantom. Shan Yu stays, change whatever needs to be to Pragmatic Villainy or something, although, unless the film specifically points out he's treating his men well and this isn't just troper inference which seems quite prevalent, just cut it.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#217717: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:18:00 PM

[up][up] Methodical Boss is tropable, as long as you don't limit it to villains, but I digress.

[up] I support the change to Pragmatic villainy.

[down] Hank isn't a CM, though.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jun 15th 2020 at 12:23:43 PM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#217718: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:20:46 PM

@Shadao: I don't know, there are some villains who are genuinely nice to their subordinates (Hank Scorpio comes to mind)

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jun 15th 2020 at 9:24:40 AM

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#217719: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:28:33 PM

As someone who wanted to cut Shan-Yu a few months ago but has grudgingly accepted that he is in fact a keeper, I think people want to cut him just because he's such a bland and generic character that he has a strong perception of being a GDV even if he's not

Edited by WaryHoglet on Jun 15th 2020 at 9:32:55 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#217720: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:42:52 PM

I mean I thought he was okay as a villain, but that's beside the point.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#217721: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:52:37 PM

[up][up] I think it stems from how people tend to confuse Flat Character with Generic Doomsday Villain (To be honest, as cool as Shan Yu is, he's not exactly a compelling character).

Edited by DrUnknown on Jun 15th 2020 at 9:53:40 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#217722: Jun 15th 2020 at 9:59:55 PM

I might attempt putting those photos up tomorrow after all. Do more than a few and offer options.

Shan-Yu is interesting to me at least, even if he is not given a lot to do. That said, yeah, when it comes to interest in a Disney CM (animated or not), someone like Frollo sets a pretty high freaking bar.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Jun 16th 2020 at 9:28:08 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#217724: Jun 16th 2020 at 12:46:51 AM

[tup] Mammy Graul, Skynet and Phantom.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#217725: Jun 16th 2020 at 4:24:30 AM

Kingdoms of Kalamar is its own setting, right?

Edited by ACW on Jun 16th 2020 at 7:24:41 AM


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