During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Why is Hades from Kid Icarus Uprising listed as a completeMonster. He's very much Played for Laughs in a goofy game, and is an expy of that Hades. Most of the time, he isn't even taken seriously. For example, one character says "Wow Hades, what you did was awesome!"
Even in the credits, Hades appears to address the audience and crack jokes.
Also why was Dagon deleted?
EDIT: For info, here's the original entry on him.
The Dark Bishop Dagon counts too: he threatens anyone who goes against the Gazel Church with banishment to the labor camps at Zoa, which are discribed as a 'living Hell'. When he does this to an Anti-Villain boss who really doesn't want to fight you, he adds something like "don't worry, I'll make sure you have your family there to keep you company." When the guy finally snaps and attacks Dagon, he gets one-shotted before he even has a chance to strike. (And being burned to death by a tome called 'Hellfire' is probably not a pleasant way to go) Good thing you get to kill the guy afterwards.
Basically Dagon is a somewhat important boss, and he appears in more then one map. Dagon runs basically death camps, has no problem with tossing civilians or kids in them, and is a Bad Boss even to his own people.
edited 10th Feb '14 6:34:31 PM by Monsund
The Joker's Laughably Evil, yet in most Batman related works, he's still treated as a serious threat. I don't see why Hades shouldn't also be an example.
edited 10th Feb '14 6:36:10 PM by AustinDR
Kid Icarus Uprising is very, very goofy.
Joker's humor when he's a completeMonster is almost always Black Humor, while the Kid Icarus Uprising character does fourth wall breaking goofy humor.
edited 10th Feb '14 6:41:17 PM by Monsund
Alright, now that's an actual argument against him. As the writer of the current entry, I'll defend him, even though I do share your reservations. Hades is a funny guy, that much is true. He mocks just about everyone in clever fashions, and everyone else seems to respect that about him if nothing else. However, while he may be a funny guy, when he's actually focused on his actual deeds are taken fairly seriously.
Getting the humans to war each other was taken seriously. Viridi, herself an antagonist at first, regards him just as bad or even worse than the humans destroying her precious nature. He teams up with the the heroes/anti-villains when the aliens attack, but he fully admits its because he wants to plunder Earth himself. Then he sends some of his own troops against Pit anyway for giggles, which does work, but still could've killed Pit. He revels in the destruction the Chaos Kin caused, and enjoys watching Pit suffer seeing evil Palutena. Then its revealed that he's using the souls that died in the wars for his own personal amusement, and that's taken seriously. And he eats souls as well. He does have a decent point about how eating souls and sending them back to the reincarnation cycle isn't very different, but it's still bad. At the end, every single other god, including Dyntos, who doesn't seem to normally care about these affairs, and Medusa, his own minion, are against him.
To sum it up, his actions are heinous, even if they do have a humorous tone covering them up. He may not be the biggest threat at any given time, but everyone loathes him and wants to take him out. As for the credits, it's like The Joker showing up in the stinger to crack some bat puns. He makes jokes and respects Pit's strength, but that's not exactly a redeeming quality.
edited 10th Feb '14 6:44:06 PM by Sterok
Thanks for adding your two cents, it was a good read and I enjoyed. I'll share my thoughts now.
Getting humans to war with each other, while certainly evil, is more subtle as Hades isn't outright killing them himself. Viridi who does even more violent actions then Hades by dropping a unnatural nuclear bomb equivalent on the humans, gets Easily Forgiven despite showing any remorse. So I'd say A Million Is a Statistic is invoked to some degree.
Another factor, is that Hades is rarely taken seriously within the story, at several points the characters joke with him, such as calling one of his methods against the Aurum, "Awesome."
Dagon is from Tearring Saga, which is basically a Spiritual Successor to Fire Emblem.
edited 10th Feb '14 7:01:42 PM by Monsund
I agree his war on the humans thing doesn't impress much, seeing just about every major character and most minor characters are killing humans or did kill them. It does however establish he meets the minimum heinous standard, and does it in a slightly different way than the others. What pushes him over is his use of souls to power his army and eating them.
Like I said, he's taken seriously while he's the focus, (22,23,25). When he's not directly hindering the heroes, he settles for sarcasm and mocking with the other gods. The moment the Aurum are out of the way, Palutena declares they need to stop him next. Didn't happen, but oh well. The awesome moment was when he hijacked and rammed an Aurum ship into them, which was both impressive and helpful. Being impressed when he does something useful doesn't disqualify him.
Sanfranman 91: Your draft looks really good, except that you maybe should note that the work is Swedish? People could be interested in that kind of information. The female protagonist's name is Beatrice. Rosenschiöld isn't really a Karma Houdini, as we actually get to see him die. After raping and almost killing Beatrice, he joins Edvard at a brothel and dies there after a couple of days of overindulgence of aphrodisiac drugs and serial abuse of the women there. But still, it's not hard to agree with Seth, who's Beatrice's love interest and the male protagonist, when he thinks that Rosenschiöld got off way too easy. And as for us readers, we just hope that his death was really painful.
edited 10th Feb '14 8:07:35 PM by Furienna
Thanks. I will update the entry in just a bit.
EDIT: Done.
- In Simona Ahrnstedt’s Överenskommelser, we have Carl-Jan Rosenschiöld. While this Swedish historical romance novel has more than its fair share of sociopaths and domestic abusers, Rosenschiöld distinguishes himself from the rest as a sadist who loves to hurt women for pleasure. Having already gone through two wives, Rosenschiöld turns his attention to marrying Beatrice, a girl who is over forty years younger than Rosenschiöld, solely because he wants a virgin. On their wedding night, he rapes and nearly kills Beatrice after he discovers that she lost her virginity before their marriage. What makes this vile act cement his status as a monster is that Beatrice never made a promise to stay a virgin until they got married. Moreover, she never even heard about the promise her cousin made to Rosenschiöld that she would remain a virgin until their marriage. He expresses no remorse for his crimes whatsoever as he spends his remaining days in a brothel overindulging in aphrodisiac drugs and sexually abusing their women. Seth, Beatrice’s Love Interest and the novel’s male protagonist, thinks that Rosenschiöld got off too easily and the reader is left hoping that his death was a painful one.
edited 10th Feb '14 8:19:44 PM by sanfranman91
Counter-tweaks to the submission ;)
- Count Luis Yu Almeida stands out from the dark cast of Lupin III: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine, which consists of thieves, murderers, seductresses, assassins, and gang bosses as the protagonists. Count Almeida was the mastermind behind horrible human experimentation. As the owner of Glaucus Pharmaceuticals, he and his scientists conducted Cold War experiments, including mind control, hypnosis, memory and personality manipulation, sensory deprivation, physical abuse, and rape. During the course of these experiments, Almeida convinced two scientists, Dr. Fritz Kaiser and his wife, to include their young daughter in the experimental trials. Then he murders Dr. Kaiser. Almeida doesn't stop there, however. He adds the memories of the tortures he puts his other experimental subjects through to her memories. Thirteen years later, and we see how insane this woman has gone from everything the Count has done to her. Glaucus Pharmaceuticals is now kidnapping children and adults, disguising human experimentation as cult fanatics, and keeping surveillance almost everywhere. Based on all the evidence Lupin compiles on Almeida's guilt, the Count's only desire was to create the perfect slave. The revelation that Luis is already dead by the time the series takes place only drives in the injustice of all he has done.
edited 11th Feb '14 3:53:23 AM by crazysamaritan
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.Now that Zyuden Sentai Kyoryuger has ended, is now a good time to debate whether or not Chaos should count? As mentioned before, he was willing to have the harmless Candellila and Luckyuro executed for being obsolete after his new generals come in. After Aigaron learns about this, he adds him to his kill list. Take note that just before, he claimed they were like family to him. However, he didn't have second thoughts about doing it just because of his Undying Loyalty to Deboss. With Kyoryuger over, he died with no remorse for his actions.
On the subject of Kyoryuger, Endolf is a good candidate too. First, he often pushes Sissy Villain Aigaron to unleash his Superpowered Evil Side, something he fears doing out of his love for Candellila. After Dogold took over his body, he used him as a puppet until he was freed. The sadistic joy he took in causing pain was enough for Dogold to to team up with his arch nemesis and kill him.
" He does have a decent point about how eating souls and sending them back to the reincarnation cycle isn't very different"
Nope. That's Insane Troll Logic .
I'm wondering why Officer Tenpenny from Grand Theft Auto San Andreas doesn't count in the game. He has a serious case of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, caring about no one but himself and abandoning and hurting those that don't seem useful to him anymore, which includes the Ballas, Big Smoke, and the his dragon Pulaski. He has also terrorized the city of Los Santos with his police organization so much that, when the court acquitted him of any wrongdoings, the city went into a full blown riot that analogues the Los Angeles Riots. He doesn't care about any of that and plans to start the whole cycle anew again.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=239#5969
edited 11th Feb '14 12:07:41 PM by Camberf
Plus he's played by Samuel L Jackson, who's just too cool to play a Complete Monster

I know that. What I mean is, what makes the setting too dark to have one? I can't think of a particular example, just on what terms is there for a work to not have a CM if the setting's too dark? Like is there something similar to the Goldilocks Condition?
edited 10th Feb '14 5:53:40 PM by AustinDR