During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Not only that, but it's possible to have some sympathy for the poor bastard. While everyone else (including Big Good Dweia) is horrified by Yakhag's very existence, Althalus, our hero, expresses some empathy after the fact, noting that while Daeva thought Yakhag was the perfect man, all Yakhag really wanted was to die (though his lack of willpower kept him from suicide). Throw that together with the lack of choice, and he definitely doesn't belong here.
Does Destroyah from Godzilla count? Because while the film entries infer to this it is an entity controlled by many smaller cells which forms the Hive Mind. Do Hive Mind style creatures really qualify for this trope or are beyone human morality to comprehend. Because it's only heinous thing was that it laughed when killing Godzilla Jr. Huh?
In fact a couple of the Godzilla entries reeks of To What Measure Is A Non Human so should be checked.
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I agree that Yakhag needs to go. He's not human enough to conform to moral standards, and I don't remember him doing anything worse on-page than straight-up killing people.
Actually, I think Destroya isn't even depicted as capable of animal intelligence. I think it fails not because of Blue-and-Orange Morality or Hive Mind issues. I think it fails because it isn't capable of understanding morality.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.Example from the Video Games section that needs to be rewritten for bias, written by haters or is poorly written:
Runescape(the entries below have a degree of bias to them(:
- Most notably, Lucien who is shaping up to be the Big Bad of the series. What did he do? Well, you, during While Guthix Sleeps, gather a group of the biggest heroes, several of which you have spent a long time in the game getting to know as people, and then Lucien kills them all . Ouch.
There is a clear "you killed my fav character!" bias here. If he qualifies then explain why instead of saying that he killed you favourite characters. And at the moment, this entry feels more like Player Punch instead.
- Vanstrom from the same series also qualifies. The FIRST THING he does when he's introduced is trick the player into finding the Myreque, a rebellion against Drakan, for him, and then kills two members of the Myreque after all of them have been introduced and given interesting backstories.
Same problem as above. If said character is a CM then it can't just boil down to "NO! He killed my fav character!" also need to be expanded.
From Resident Evil:
- Albert Wesker. This man is, when you look at the big picture, responsible for everything bad that happens in the series' canon, and the most irredeemably evil villain in the series. A major sufferer of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder, he does not care for the well being of his "partners", and will gladly dispose of them when the time comes that they are no longer of use to him. First off, after becoming the commander of the S.T.A.R.S Alpha Team (we later learn he was planted as a Double Agent), he traps his crew inside of a secret Umbrella facility disguised as a mansion, and uses his "teammates" as test subjects for his grotesque experiments, killing more than half of them in the process. He was also partially behind the tragic backstory of William Birkin, the Big Bad of Resident Evil 2, as they were actually colleagues. Later, he finds out about Spencer manipulating and engineering him to be who he is today, and is none too pleased, killing him in the process, as well as taking down series mainstay Jill Valentine to their supposed deaths. Surviving the fall, he decides to brainwash Jill into becoming his slave, mainly being petty against his nemesis Chris Redfield. He then goes on to kill U.S. Senator Ron Davis in Degeneration after considering him a liability to his new company Tricell. Then, he decides to pit Jill against Chris just for his own amusement in watching Chris' torment in fighting his partner. Then, he betrays Excella Gionne, his then-partner and one-sided lover, in the most cruel way imaginable - calling her a failed experiment, injecting her with his Ouroboros virus, and sending her out to deal with Chris and Sheva while he escapes on his own. And his motivation for doing all of this? To become God of the New World by infecting every single human on the planet with his Ouroboros virus, which will kill those with unworthy DNA and leave only the chosen few for him to rule over. When he was finally confirmed dead by Word Of God (getting burned alive in a volcano and then getting his head exploded via dual Rocket Launchers, in the most extreme No One Could Survive That moment the series has ever seen), fans rejoiced.
This looks like a good keep but.............."fans rejoiced?" This reeks of Did Not Do The Research as Wesker is a very, very popular with the fandom so it isn't logical to say that "fans rejoiced", and that part was clearly written by a hater. Just delete that last part and this entry is good as it is.
- Jon Irenicus from Baldur's Gate. Shadows of Amn starts with his torturing the Player Character, and continues with a tour of his dungeon where you find out that he has killed two of your party members from the previous game and cut one of them apart while making your innocent little sister watch, and keeps people floating in jars in perpetual pain and madness, and stuff like that. One reviewer at Amazon.com gave the game an extremely negative review after only playing this part and quitting in disgust, saying that Irenicus "defines evil". And Irenicus does all this with complete indifference. He doesn't enjoy, justify or regret it. He just has no regard for the suffering of others whatsoever. Even his Freudian Excuse is something he only got after already trying to leap the Moral Event Horizon (although those initial crimes seem tame to the player compared to his others, as we don't get to see what would actually happen if he killed the Tree of Life). His former people and most of the playable characters also think of him very much in Complete Monster terms. The fact that he is made to appear as an unbeatable, irresistible inevitability that your character is helpless against only adds to the desire to finally destroy him.
Another good entry, but remove the 1-star review allusion. It felts that it was written by Jack Thompson or any extreme Moral Guardians type figure.
- The entire Greater Korean Republic off all spades in Homefront. To elaborate, one of the first scenes in the game involves two KPA soldiers killing a woman and man with their child being forced to watch it. And it's heavily implied that they killed the child too.
- Still haven't hate them yet, wait till they find the resistance hideout, Oasis, and kill every man, woman, and child.
- If it's still not enough, the KPA gun down everyone and burn the entire town of Montrose after your actions against them.
- Not to mention the landfill of corpses they had
- Arguably, the Crazy Survivalists are much worse. They capture anyone who have East Asian ancestry, not just anyone with Korean descent. These guys torture and lynch them, and hang the corpses of Korean soldiers as prized trophies just out of sheer racism and personal enjoyment. Heck, they are so monstrous that even Connor is fed up with them. It is clear that while John Milius is a strong supporter of gun ownership and a member of the NRA, he clearly does not want to be associated with the survivalist idealogy.
It's a group, the faction version of this trope is Always Chaotic Evil. And remove the whole John Milius thing cause I honestly don't get it. I suggest cut and move to right location.
And by extension, should the Thalmor from Skyrim also be moved from the Elder Scrolls section to Always Chaotic Evil as well? As C Ms are a PERSON not a faction.
- Father Balder from Bayonetta qualifies. He started the Witch Hunts and is responsible the the death of Luka's father.
I read that this guy does qualify for a variety of reasons but this is poorly written and if you never played this game then you won't "get" why he does. Needs expansion
edited 2nd Aug '12 12:24:52 PM by xie323
@2158: Um... I'm not trying to be insulting here, but I'm afraid that it'll sound like that no matter what: your arguments are also poorly written. To be honest, I'm having a hard time reading them.
Anyhow, for the examples themselves.
Lucien would need more to qualify - that smacks heavily of Protagonist-Centered Morality. Bad guys kill good guys; it's kind of in the job description, particularly in video games.
The example of Wesker from Resident Evil needs some cleanup, yes. Wesker straddles the line between Love to Hate and Draco in Leather Pants, so yes, there was quite a bit of rejoicing when he finally bit it (both from those who found him to be a Villain Sue and from those who felt he got a sufficient sendoff), but that's actually beside the point. Just as we don't want discussion of Karma Houdini on these entries, potential gravedancing about Laser-Guided Karma or the like is also natter for this trope. I can condense that example later tonight.
For Irenicus... that would need major reworking. It would need to tie in to greater crimes somehow, wince Baldur's Gate is another one of those series where we have mass-murdering psychos out to destroy the world. What has been described is heinous in some worlds, but not necessarily this one (that said, given how poorly it was written, I imagine that there probably is enough to include him if someone makes the right argument).
Everything from Homefront should go - groups do not qualify for Complete Monster; individuals do.
If someone can expand the Bayonetta example, I'll consider it.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.Since there are so many villains in discussion, I guess there is no problem with bringing one more; General Mandible from Antz.
The argument for him is tried to drown his colony Queen and hoards of her loyal subjects. His motivation? he considers the worker ants weak-willed, undisiplined and uncomitted vermin, so he plans to build a new colony filled with (what he views as) the ideal ant.
Yeah he is evil, but sounds like a very brutal version of a Well-Intentioned Extremist to me.
"He considers" looks more like Knight Templar than Well-Intentioned Extremist to me.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanFeel free to bring up multiple villains, but also do make an effort to discuss examples already up for discussion.
Mandible from Atnz is a tricky one. He's definitely a case of Fantastic Racism (well, Fantastic Classism really, but why split hairs over the particular type of prejudice). His declaration at the end ("I AM the colony!") strikes me as extremely selfish; he is more than willing to literally sacrifice everyone else for his own being (the implication at the very least being that the only survivors of his plan would be those taht would be useful to him).
That said, he doesn't quite hit the level of pure sadism and cruelty I'd expect out of a Complete Monster. He wants power for the sake of power, but he's not interested in conquering everything or killing everyone. He just wants to take over the ant colony. He strikes me as not quite being heinous enough to qualify, but just barely.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
I totally agree with you. Okay, I will say about some other villains already in discussion.
Irenicus? I have only played the first game so I can't say, but based on the description, I would say he counts.
Destroyah? Cut, he is more of jerk than a sadistic CM.
Ghidorah? Keep
Gigan? Cut
Also, can I cut Patrick Hockstetter and Percy Wetmore? Or still not enough consensus?
edited 2nd Aug '12 2:27:48 PM by Krystoff
Actually most users (me included) were in favor of Patrick being on the list but the arguments were more like oh he disturbed me so much rather than whether he meets the criteria. Shaoken and 32 seemed to be the only two who supported the cut, but their arguments were much more objective and logical.
As for Margaret, I say keep. And what do you say Largo? I haven't read the book but I've seen the movie.
edited 2nd Aug '12 2:33:51 PM by Krystoff
Having read the book, seen most of the musical (yes, the MUSICAL. It exists.) and seen the movie, Margaret White is definitely a Well-Intentioned Extremist, of the religious kind. She tortures her daughter in the name of her religion (which seems to be a very extreme version of Protestantism), but seems unaware that it's torture, telling her that menstruation is part of the curse of Eve, for Eve ate the apple at the Garden of Eden, and Eve was weak. She forbids Carrie from interacting with men, and, if I am remembering correctly, does stray into physical abuse of her, but again, this is all in the name of her fanatical devotion to her religion. She believes her actions will save Carrie from her own fate in life: she slept with her eventual husband, got pregnant, was tormented by guilt to the point where she threw herself down the stairs to have a miscarriage, and was then raped by the same man after their marriage. I say cut because Margaret is clearly insane, but it's easy to see where she's coming from, at least.
edited 2nd Aug '12 2:40:12 PM by LargoQuagmire
Margaret did not seem to be a Protestant. All her icons looked very Catholic to me. Also, considering that she is a Well-Intentioned Extremist, I will be fine with cutting. But as I said, I only seen the movie, and I think she counts. But you know better since you are more familiar with Carrie than I am.
2140 So the Big Bad from Modern Warfare 2 would be a WIE instead of a CM?
The thing about the movie is that it totally cuts out Margaret's history of Carrie's conception, which makes her religious devotion much harder to understand. The book, and musical, are much clearer about the fact that Margaret is overcompensating way too much for her own sad history with this religious devotion.
edited 2nd Aug '12 2:50:22 PM by LargoQuagmire
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@2170
As in General Shepard? I think he was removed quite some time ago. Basically he was a total bastard but nowhere compared to the MW 1 villains or Makarov, and actually had justifiable WIE views. Furthermore the opinions of a few of the people who wanted him to qualify all boiled down to "I hate American Foreign policy" or "I don't want America to take over the world" and that's just political baiting.
So at the end of the day, he's just a Hate Sink.
about Carrie's mom: Even only having seen the movie, I never got the feeling she was a complete monster. It seemed like the idea was "this is what happens when you mix mental instability with crazy religious beliefs", not "this is a bad person down to the core."
edited 2nd Aug '12 4:09:30 PM by abk0100

Just cut some references on the rest of the wiki to Yakhag of The Redemption Of Althalus being one. Yes, he's scary as hell. Yes, he's heinous by the standards of the story. Yes the other villains are terrified of him, and yes, he causes the only heroic death in the book. But the whole reason he's like that, is because an evil god stripped every emotion but a faint desire to die from him. He's as much a victim of Daeva as anyone else in the book, and is genuinely glad to die when the Bheid drives a sword through him. I don't think he qualifies for this.