During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
What's the work?
Birthright is a Dungeons and Dragons setting which tried to do something considerably new and different....you're not just an adventurer, but a ruler. It's not based around murder hoboing too much but leading nations. See, in the backstory? A corrupt god named Azrai led dark forces to conquer the world. To stop him, six other gods sacrificed themselves to destroy Azrai and shards of his essence were absorbed by followers....now, the fates of others are tied to their bloodlines, and the other gods have sworn off the world of Cerilia. Our first villain? The Gorgon.
Who is the Gorgon?
The mightiest of the awnshegh, those who absorbed Azrai's power, the Gorgon is the ruler of the Gorgon's Crown. Born Raesene, a bastard prince of Andu, passed over for his legitimate brothers which rankled him just a touch. At age 16, he left to explore the world and returned hardened, whereupon his dad nicknamed him 'The Black Prince.' And then came Azrai who promised Raesene the power he craved. When war approached? Raesene betrayed his family and slaughtered thousnads of his own people. When Azrai died, Raesene absorbed the most of his power. And then he learned the art of bloodtheft, stealing the bloodlines of others. Becoming a monster, Raesene became the Gorgon (which...looks nothing like an actual gorgon, I'm just sayin'. Anyone who pointed this out was promptly beheaded).
Raising an army, the Gorgon swept over Cerilia, massacring countless innocents, conquering a kingdom he named the Gorgon's Crown, cultivating bloodlines to grow stronger before harvesting them. One of the greatest heroes of the age, Michael Roele, faced off with the Gorgon and fell before him, but the bloodline survived. Now ruling the Gorgon's Crown, Raesene intends to conquer all of Cerilia, and when he fights, he fights for keeps, having once overrun a kingdom called Kiergard. Almost nothing survived. The Gorgon also keeps his lieutenants on their toes by 'replaicng' them every few decades or so...with others forced into brutal slavery and extermination.
Anyone who seeks to rule the world or fight evil? You're gonna need to face the Gorgon eventually. And in 500 years, nobody who faces him has ever walked away....good luck, heroes.
Heinousness?
The worst in Birthright. Raesene massacred his own people, sided with the god of evil to subjugate the world and has grown even worse since, massacring countless tens of thousands, depopulating entire regions and oh yeah, invented Bloodtheft, stealing the bloodlines by killing others for himself. Most other villains? Are bad rulers, maybe even murderers and monsters but only one has Raesene/The Gorgon's savage bodycount and cruelty. Pass.
Mitigating Qualities?
No. He's not just a corrupted monster. In one sourcebook, we get insight to his mind and backstory: he was rotting from within based upon hatred, ego and self-aggrandizement. He mentions he lost his lover and unborn child, at one point and his allies...but it becomes clear he only cared for them as a way to be seen like he 'deserved,' as his own glory. He never forgave his father for not seeing his worth and sided with the god of evil to massacre his nation out of sheer spite. He became corrupt, power hungry and his anger turned him into a shell of a man who cared only for revenge and power. And as the Gorgon (who looks nothing like a Gorgon
◊) he simply has the method and means...he's a nightmarish ruler, cares nothing for anyone and is a vicious tyrant out to dominate the world.
conclusion?
Keeper.
The second Birthright CM? I give you the Manslayer...
Who is Rhuobhe Manslayer?
Rhuobhe, pronounced Rove, was once a young elf from Aelvinnwode...when humans encroached upon their territory, elf and human were necessarily friendly but not truly hostile. Until the goblins attacked and human and elf allied. Rhuobhe ended up fascinated by humans and fought with them...but humans didn't respect the elven forests and abused them, shrugging off Rhuobhe's complaints and mocking him. Rhuobhe joined hunters and began to hunt and slaughter humans, guilty or innocent, with a fervor unmatched. He became 'Manslayer.' Azrai approached the elves with a promise to liberate them and the elves happily signed on...until they deserted him, realizing how evil Azrai was. Except Rhuobhe, who was all "let's massacre the world if I get to kill the humans."
Rhuobhe ended up absorbing parts of Azrai's essence, becoming second only to the Gorgon, ruling from his home of Ruannoch. His favorite past time? Killing humans. Now, Rhoubhe will attack and massacre humans when he can, and sometimes he entertains diplomacy to amuse himself, but most kingdoms don't really bother as Rhuobhe constantly sends back ambassadors' heads. He seeks only the utter annihilation of humanity....and then he plans to wipe out the goblins, too. "I shall not rest until each human, be it man, woman, or child is slaughtered." Any elf who doesn't side with him is an enemy as well, subject to torture and execution.
One adventure? A power-hungry princess is eager to climb the ranks and Rhuobhe decdies to help her out by staging her own kidnapping...except he uses it as an operation to inspire her nation to war with another, all so that he can see humans kill each other with sick glee. And Rhuobhe? Would happily see every elf dead if it meant he could send humanity to hell.
Heinousness?
Rhuobhe is second only to the Gorgon, but it's not because he's less heinous. He's not just a violent conqueror, he's genocidal. Rhuobhe is responsible for torture and murder on grand scales, spending centuries with hunting down any humans he can and culling them when he finds them. If that wasn't enough, he's planning on genociding the goblins when he's done and would happily kill every elf alive if it means fulfilling his hate on for humanity. Yeah, Rhuobhe is kind of a bad, bad guy.
Mitigating qualities?
Now, he does have an excuse in his anger of human mistreatment of the forests. To say he's gone so far beyond the pale is a bit of an understatement. His personal issues from centuries ago are taken out so he can kill every last human man, woman and child in Cerilia. While he does wish to preserve elven forests, it's for himself alone...he'd burn them all down and kill every elf i it meant he could kill humankind. the fact that he's such a vicious bigot when even other human-hating elves turned on Azrai except Rhuobhe? Says a lot for him.
When we see him in the flesh, he's a calculating, sadistic mastermind, who finds amusement in the prospect of humans butchering one another. Pass.
Conclusion?
And a yes to the second and final Birthright candidate.
Chop-chop goes J. Yes to the Birthright duo
Said Elder Scrolls example, btw; this 'un comes from the game's expansive in-universe lore dating back to Morrowind before the character appeared directly in Skyrim: Potema Septim, the Wolf Queen of Solitude.
Who is Potema? What has she done?
Mother of Uriel Septim III, ruler of Solitude and a woman so brutal she looked a savage wolf even as a newborn baby, Potema is one of the very few historical figures in Tamriel regarded as "unambiguously evil." Accounts of her life are detailed in in-game books as Biography of the Wolf Queen and a legit 11K short story also simply called The Wolf Queen split into eight volumes hidden in the game, which tells a richly-detailed account of her history. Potema's care for her subjects is such that, during the labor of her birth of her son Uriel, Potema commanded a Daedra to be summoned: "I'll trade the soul of every last subject of mine for a little comfort!"
A lockpocking blackmailer since she was ten years old, Potema uses her son Uriel as her tool for power and dominion over Tamriel, attempting to dethrone the current Emperor—Potema's own niece, Kintyra—by exposing her as illegitimate. When this fails, Potema decides to do what she does best and invoke full-on war. Potema has Uriel spearhead a series of brutal attacks that lead to Kintyra's entourage massacred and Kintyra herself executed, and the Imperial City crushed. Uriel becomes Emperor of Tamriel...as Potema's perfect puppet king. Potema's grab for power ignited a civil war known as the War of the Red Diamond, a conflict so bloody it nearly tore the entire Empire to pieces. Potema outlives her son after Uriel is lynched, taking away her meal ticket to the throne, and Potema turns to necromancy and Daedra-dealing to try and regain the favor.
By the time of her ultimate death at 90, Solitude is a "land of death", where even the chambermaids and the soldiers are undead and all of Potema's living allies have deserted her because of her nutfuckery. Potema's final spiteful jest on the Empire is the trick she plays on her nephew Pelagius, whom she knows will become Emperor some day—giving him a cursed soul gem that will whittle away his sanity over time. Pelagius would become known to history as "Pelagius the Mad" for the insanity that eventually consumed him whole.
If there's any doubt about the historical documents and stories, Skyrim and Dawnguard show Potema to be exactly as evil as she's claimed to be. A side quest in Skyrim has the Dragonborn forced to stop Potema's spirit from coming back to life after she's conjured up by some necromancers. Potema designs to lay waste to Tamriel with an undead army and it's remarked that, terrifyingly, she has legit claim to the throne as a Septim.
Dawnguard has one final Kick the Dog moment that drags Potema to the bottom of the barrel; the Soul Cairn is an artificial plane of Oblivion created by ascended necromancers named the Ideal Masters. It's perhaps one of the purest forms of And I Must Scream in the entire franchise; souls condemned there describe simply being there as like being constantly drawn-and-quartered; where the Ideal Masters experiment and torture the condemned souls without end; where there is no escape for those trapped there, ever, period. One of the Soul Cairn's unfortunate denizens is a weeping servant with only this to say: "All I said to Potema was I thought she looked a little portly in that gown. How was I supposed to know?!"
Any mitigating factors?
Now, this is a more unique case than most for me given a good chunk of what I'd term as "onscreen villainy" for Potema is in the In-Game Novel. I'm not sure if we've ever had many cases like that before, but Potema's life and the War of the Red Diamond itself are covered in exquisite detail through The Wolf Queen. Her behavior as a ghost shows—in a rare case for ES—there are pretty much zero discrepancies between text and game, as Potema is a cackling witch who acts very much like the historical fantasy villain she's described as.
The only touchy thing, I admit, is Uriel and if Potema loves him. The worst of Potema's insanity is remarked to have occurred only after Uriel was lynched. My issue with this, though...Potema doesn't ever really seem to treat Uriel as anything but a meal ticket to the throne. In Wolf Queen, Potema's concern over Uriel's physical health after he's captured never seems anything more than pragmatic, and she doesn't react at all when a servant tells him Uriel was killed. Nothing, from the lore to the historical documents, say Potema was grieving him or even actin for out on his behalf so much as she was throwing a gigantic hissy fit that she lost her key to the throne. Without Uriel to sit in the throne for her, she's powerless, and her final vengeful act against Pelagius is only ever described as a move of spite when she realizes she'd never be able to rule. I cannot, for the life of me, say Potema actually cared for Uriel beyond a pawn and believe it.
The heinous standard of the series, as ever, is really high, but...I'm feeling surprisingly confident saying she passes here? Potema is responsible for a war of such magnitude it nearly annihilated the entire Empire, tries to come back to life to start the entire thing over again, and has a slew of really awful, petty villainy in-between. Condemning a servant to the Soul Cairn for an unintentional insult is one of the lowest crimes I've ever seen in the series.
Conclusion?
Potema's more unique given a good chunk of her character and onscreen villainy come from a (sizeable) In-Game Novel, and I'm not sure if everyone will agree on my rundown on Uriel, but personally? I think the pieces are all there. She's easily one of the most abhorrent historical figures in the series' history.
Edited by Scraggle on Jun 1st 2020 at 7:10:58 AM
Hey, I was just looking over the thread and I'm a bit lost on what's been going on. Are we cutting all villain protagonists?
Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here
Sorry, thought I saw messages about it, as well as a lot of "cut" votes. I must just be confused.

Is the translation accurate.
Because :
So J. Studied for a Long time. He studied anatomy, biology. He looked at the bodies of human Guinea pigs from his books, brushed them with the tips of his fingers. He was different yet so close to them. He had the Same body but not the Same spirit. He felt superior, intellectually but also spiritually.
. Okay this is hilarious.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."