During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Black Pope
Yes to the Black Pope, and I certainly don't mind that quote for Joffrey. Pretty big Kick the Dog encapsulated in that snippet of dialogue.
Lighty and I have two final Tod Slaughter posts.
What's the setting?
It's Never Too Late to Mend is a 1937 film (that begun as a 1856 book that was adapted thrice to film beforehand—and a play, before that) putting the spotlight on the gruesome conditions of old Victorian gaols. Tod Slaughter plays here a villainous squire who, in typical Slaughter fashion, leers over the fair maiden Susan and conspires to have her fiancee framed for some manner of crime.
Who is Squire Meadows? What has he done?
A blackgard in the unfortunate position of Chief Justice, Meadows exploits his nobility to see his rival George Fielding framed and indicted for poaching on the Squire's own land. Meadows conspires with the corrupt chief-of-police to see George sent off to the jailhouse, but George's friend Tom Robinson steps up to take the accusation for him. Meadows is forced to make do with Robinson, and this is where we gets to Meadows' prison.
Prisoners, guilty or innocent, are tortured day-in and day-out at Meadows' whim. Meadows visits the prison every single day to lord over his "naughty children" for giggles—"and what better is there for a child than the occasional spot of punishment?" Meadows has the prisons forced to turn cranks for hours on end, with any who don't hit a certain quota by the day lashed to ribbons with cattails or starved.
Meadows fancies a few more inventive punishments, as well, and one of his favored is the "black hole"; an isolation ward that doubles as a sensory deprivation chamber, where Meadows tosses prisoners in for twenty-four hours at the slightest hint of backtalk whereupon they go insane from the sensory deprivation. Meadows remarks he's seen men come into the black hole coherent, and come out as insane beasts. Meadows also adores the straitjacket, which he tightens up so hard it acts as an iron maiden to whoever's stuffed inside of it.
Meadows particularly singles out Tom Robinson to torture for pleasure and spite, starving him, lashing him and slaving him while heaping extra punishments upon him at his own whim. Meadows' worst atrocity comes in the form of the little boy who's at the prison who Meadows doesn't spare from the torture; Meadows locks the little boy in the straitjacket and leaves him there until he's nearly dead, and proceeds to try and order him chucked back in when Tom frees the poor kid in horror. It's a moot detail; the kid dies in Tom's arms from how badly Meadows has tortured him. Meadows orders Tom thrown into the black hole for freeing the kid, and only the kindness of the prison's priest prevents Tom from losing his mind.
Thankfully, on the outside, after he graduates from trying to frame George to outright trying to have him murdered, Meadows ends up finally exposed for the murderous blackgard he is and is dragged off to his own jail, where Meadows undergoes a deliciously deranged Villainous Breakdown and is last seen turning the crank himself, utterly broken.
Any mitigating factors?
Zip, zero, and zilch. Meadows isn't quite as much of a direct murderer as many of his other roles, but the institutionalized cruelty of his prison, the Kick the Dog moment with the boy and the way the film exaggerates Meadows' sadism to cartoonish extremes easily qualifies him for the time period.
Conclusion?
Keeper.
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
Gotham, Square, Deimos and Black Pope
Stay tuned for a bit of discussion on this one Dr. STONE crossover campaign from Last Cloudia which will be tomorrow.
Edited by MasterJoseph on May 27th 2020 at 9:16:18 AM
IPP Wick Check created.
Hearty yes
to Squire
Black Pope and Squire Meadows
Just deleted this unapproved extra line from YMMV.Rogue One:
This guy is so bad that it comes off as a good thing that Tarkin is in command of the Death Star: at least he has some restraint.
My edit reason also pointed out how this makes no sense considering Tarkin blew up Alderaan.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Wild Child
Meadows.
More opinions on the quote? I don't know how to get a quote added besides putting it in this thread for approval so
Happy yea on the quote. My penultimate Slaughter: The Tiger from The Ticket of Leave Man
Who is the Tiger?
A notorious murderer well known for strangling his victims, who has left a trail of slaughter (pun intended) across London. Soon claiming his latest victim, a poor sentry, the Tiger lusts after a young lady named May who is the fiancee of a bank clerk. Concocting a scheme to get rich quick by burying the Tiger and emerging as a seemingly respectable Banker named James Dalton, he begins robbing his clients with counterfeit bank notes and convincing othrs to take life insurance policies before having them scared to death to fake natural causes when they're elderly.
Robert is sent to jail, but given a ticket of leave, with the Tiger also framing him for the murders while trying to seduce May....things eventually double back and his wicked partner, Melter Moss, decides to confront him, worried things are getting too hot. The Tiger strangles him and has another subordinate help erase the evidnece by setting fire to the room...and locks the man in, leaving him to burn to death, mocking him that he can try the window. "It's only five stories!"
Scheming to take care of Robert who has been investigating him, The Tiger tries to set him up but falls prey to Robert's own caginess, cornered and on the run,, he ends up tripping and falling into an open grave in the cemetery, breaking his neck when he strikes the coffin.
Mitigating Qualities?
Large bodycount, serial killer, et. It's Tod Slaughter, we know this already.
Conclusion?
Antoher easy keeper.
Edited by Lightysnake on May 27th 2020 at 10:39:06 AM
I thought sharks were my friends.
Yay to the Tiger and Meadows.
Edited by DelphineTheDelphox on May 27th 2020 at 10:47:03 AM
RIP KissAnime.
The Tiger
Wild Child
Tiger.
Meadows and Tiger
Black Pope, Squire Meadows and Tiger.
The Draftsman of Doom
Squire and Tiger.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I'll get Helen Valentine's expansion this weekend too, along with the Hack/Slash rewrites.
I already took care of Holocaust.
Black Pope (Pre-Crisis or on its own, the Sex Slave thing is a unique enough touch IMO); Squire John Meadows; Tiger.
Sure to the quote.
Edited by ACW on May 28th 2020 at 4:18:50 AM
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
RIP Toriyama
'Yes' to Apocalypse & Holocaust, Black Pope, and the latest Slaughter baddies!
Alright, to round up this batch of effortposts before my write-ups, here's my second and final Elemental Masters proposal...from the first book in the entire series, The Fire Rose, based on Beauty and the Beast, detailing Rosalind "Rose" Hawkins being invited to be an official guest at the mansion of and nightly reader to the mysterious Jason Cameron, a powerful magic Master who has recently been transformed into half-wolf by a flunked out spell, and now seeks companionship.
Who is he?
Paul du Mond is one of the two main antagonists of the novel, and the more proactive and focused-upon. The smug, seemingly loyal servant and apprentice to Jason Cameron, Paul is, in truth, working with Jason's rival, Simon Beltaire, to undo and destroy Jason, as Paul has grown annoyed at the slow, steady path of magic training Jason offers, and is much more intrigued by Beltaire's "shortcuts" which Paul hopes to use for his own dastardly desires.
What has he done?
Paul spends a big chunk of the novel just sneaking around, being an unlikable ass to Rose and giving Beltaire info and intel on Jason's condition, Paul planning to ultimately betray Jason to be brutally and (Paul hopes) painfully killed by Beltaire. Extremely generic stuff, all things considered.
Then Paul gets a POV chapter, and we learn that Paul is a raging misogynist, sexual sadist, and flipping Serial Rapist and torturer of prostitutes in his free time away from Jason's mansion.
Paul, in exchange for a discount from pimps across the city? Offers to break any unruly or struggling women forced into trafficking. Spending hours verbally, psychologically and—if need be—physically torturing young women until he has utterly destroyed their sense of self and defiance and become broken slaves "worth less than dirt," Paul then rapes the women to his heart's content, taking sick glee in the fact that, since the women are so defiant and still value themselves when he starts, he's no doubt one of the first men who have ever laid with them.
Continuing business and pleasure as usual, Paul eventually gets himself set up in the city full-time, becoming Beltaire's apprentice and gaining tons of knowledge on magicks as well as plenty of spending money. Paul's chief desire for most of the novel? Have his own Sex Slave, to be kept at his beck and call to be raped and tortured whenever he likes, and, using his newfound freedom and resources supplied by Beltaire, Paul does just that.
.......cut to later on and Paul has gone through women like a hot knife through butter. Turns out, women literally can't survive Paul's deviant, sadistic tastes, and it's become a regular occurrence for him to take a sex slave and her turn up violated and dead within a few days, Paul casually ordering one of his stooges to dispose of the growing number of bodies, all while himself and Beltaire butcher and torment even more people for the sake of magic rituals.
Paul, ready to move up in his magical training, learns from Beltaire that he needs a virgin for his next sacrifice. Paul quickly tells his trafficking partners to send him a prepubescent girl so he can use her in the sacrifice, but when the "order" takes longer to arrive than expected, Paul—having taken to recreative drugs to bolster his magic affinity—has an epiphany as he realizes that Rose is no doubt a virgin given her prim and proper nature, and decides to kidnap her from Jason's mansion and use her as the sacrifice both to satisfy his personal desire to dominate her, and knowing that her death will torment Jason, who has grown attached to her.
Unfortunately for Paul, between underestimating Rose and Jason, as well as his current drugged up state, he ends up getting jumped by the half-beastial Jason and having his throat torn out before he gets very far with the kidnapped Rose.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Naw, Paul's an ass. Ain't nothing more to it. He's a sexist, racist, vile little shithead who believes in some bullshit survival of the fittest ideal (even insanely claiming that babies are manipulative little opportunists) and one of the biggest Hate Sink characters in the series.
Heinousness?
Paul's really, really bad. He's operating with extremely few resources, and he's only got like 2 chapters to himself, but he quickly establishes himself as a serial rapist and torturer who quickly graduates to killing, and nearly sacrifices a preteen girl just to further along his magic progress.
Not only is Paul way low on the totem of resources compared to other villains in the series, but The Fire Rose is also.....hmmmmm dubiously canon in the Elemental Masters series, so Paul's got more than enough leeway to count. He's not mass-poisoning young girls or causing the Spanish Flu, but for a low-level, pathetic little weasel of a villain, he's got plenty of disgusting, despicable acts to count.
Final Verdict?
Handy 'Yep'.
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
The Draftsman of Doom
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Paul. What about Beltaire? He seems pretty awful himself.
Also, where will Paul go in the tree? It was the first book, but the work page has it as almost a prototype, so should it go last like Berserk: The Prototype?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
RIP Toriyama
Beltaire is...bad to a point, but I'd say the inherent issue with him is that he's got way more resources than Paul, yet Paul is the one given the more focus to his crimes and personality. Beltaire's most notably evil moments are built moreso around his Lack of Empathy and the indirect consequences of things he does, less so than active, horrible crimes he's personally directing. His two "worst" moments are shrugging off and refusing to help victims of an earthquake, and his powers going out of control and causing destruction throughout a city after he's dead, neither of which can exactly be attributed towards heinousness.
On top of the fact that he's at a higher resource level than Paul—meaning that, depending on canonicity, he's dealing with more nasties at his level—and I think Beltaire comes up short.
I'd say the book should probably go at the start of the tree—even though it's canonicity is dubious, there's really nothing outright making it clear that it's not-canon, so the assumption that it isn't canon is really just that—an assumption backed up by some in-universe inconsistencies, but no solid Word of God or some such.
Edited by Ravok on May 28th 2020 at 2:02:25 AM
Tonight I dine on monkey soup.
Paul du Mond
Goku Black
Paul, squire and the pope.
Just finished Mortal Kombat 11 Aftermath. If anyone wants to discuss it with me in PM, I'm all ears.
