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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#213527: May 14th 2020 at 7:08:20 PM

You can "play with" anything, YMMV or otherwise, we don't list "playing with" examples of YMMV tropes. The audience can react and feel a character is an MB, CM or whatever and what we do here and on MB is try to quantify the bits that can be and vote to get a consensus on whether or not we've got reason to feel it's an audience reaction to see a character in this light. You aren't... trying to suggest cutting this now are you Guma?

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#213528: May 14th 2020 at 7:13:21 PM

[up] Oh no. I’m far too attached to this “““trope””” to let it be cut. I’m basically just saying that the current arguments for not cutting it are inconsistent with a good majority of this wiki.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#213529: May 14th 2020 at 7:15:03 PM

Then what are you saying? Why is this an issue?

It's a YMMV trope because elements that make it up need to be vetted and sometimes debated.

Edited by Lightysnake on May 14th 2020 at 7:15:29 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#213531: May 14th 2020 at 7:27:56 PM

I don't understand what's causing you confusion: anything can technically be "played with" by the standards of the wiki. A YMMV item only gets listed in "played straight" form... what exactly is thowing you?

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#213532: May 14th 2020 at 7:31:47 PM

“Don't add these in the main page. Not as "played", straight or otherwise. They go on the YMMV page. The rule against First-Person Writing-based statements also counts for these. For ease of quickly identifying items that belong on the YMMV page, just look for the links whose bullet point has been replaced by a fuel dispenser. But please, make sure that the entry is actually a YMMV example, and not a YMMV Trope being used In-Universe.

Be aware that Playing with a Trope cannot apply to these YMMV items. They can't be subverted or downplayed or inverted or averted.”

—The YMMV Home Page

EDIT: And I see where I messed up. It merely states that they can’t go on the main page, not that none of them can be played straight.

What was I thinking? What’s even my argument? Today just hasn’t been my day.

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on May 14th 2020 at 10:40:36 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#213533: May 14th 2020 at 7:36:56 PM

Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard are special cases. The constant decay the trope got when people were allowed to add to them without criteria in place resulted in both the tropes degenerating to the point where they genuinely would have been better off on the Cut List.

If you see us treating these YMMV items uniquely or inconsistently in comparison to the rest of the wiki, Guma, it's because we're supposed to be treating them uniquely. The reasons why constitute over 8000 pages of discussion, included in which is the affirmation this trope will stay YMMV and moderated by a dedicated cleanup thread for the rest of foreseeable time. That's how we've agreed things work.

Edited by Scraggle on May 14th 2020 at 8:37:29 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#213534: May 14th 2020 at 7:37:59 PM

Alright, I'm about tapping out here: "playing straight" and "not playing with" are the same thing. You've tried to suggest we cut MB all together, just rage quit on the latter thread and now you're nitpicking about a negligible and frankly off topic point. What exactly is the issue here: are you interested in either trope being curated because that is the only purpose the threads exist for?

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#213535: May 14th 2020 at 7:41:00 PM

Just forget I said anything. You win. Right now, I’m nothing more than a babbling idiot driven by blind rage.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#213536: May 14th 2020 at 9:00:22 PM

Guma, chill out dude. It's just a narrative convention.

This isn't about winning an argument. It's about having a civilized discussion to establish whether a character fits a specific archetype.

Edited by SkyCat32 on May 14th 2020 at 12:03:08 PM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#213537: May 14th 2020 at 9:11:59 PM

Which Nekron was an accidental complete monster? I'm familiar with Ahmanet and Griffin, but which one was Nekron, Fire & Ice, Blackest Night, or some other one?

Edited by nwotyzal on May 14th 2020 at 9:18:07 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#213538: May 14th 2020 at 9:18:15 PM

Blackest Night. Word of God was it he was supposed to come off as a cosmic force following its nature instead of like a malevolent sadist that practices And I Must Scream to horrifyingly unnecessary degrees.

toonyloon Since: Jul, 2011
#213539: May 14th 2020 at 9:25:17 PM

Speaking of accidental CMs, I think Unalaq from Legend of Korra might be another example.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#213540: May 14th 2020 at 9:36:13 PM

[up] Yes. As pointed out many times before.

Sorry, had long day. Been through a couple of stories for a while now.

[tup] "Glyde".

[tup] Sweeney Todd.

[tup] Pavelic.

[tup] Howard Phillip Lovecraft.

Late discussion but I abstained from Baker, since I thought the Dirty Old Man but could give him an edge, but even that is just barely.

Also cut to Fontaine all things considered. I had an objection at first, but quickly realized it didn't hold up. Still find it funny how his vice actor would later go on to play another Rockstar CM in Micah Bell, who is Fontaine's near opposite when it comes to outward behaviour and personality.

Edited by Beast on May 14th 2020 at 11:37:05 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#213541: May 14th 2020 at 10:14:36 PM

BTW, once my school year is done, I'm gonna try doing a couple of E Ps (hopefully, even marginally, better than my last one)

Edited by nwotyzal on May 14th 2020 at 10:19:33 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#213542: May 14th 2020 at 11:02:25 PM

Okay, so...I've got a Wonder Woman villain for now, first of two...the latter being a non-canon crossover with a surprising character, but that will come after one other DC and two non-DC from what might be one of my favorite comics...but first?

What's the work?

Wonder Woman, Earth 1 is by Grant Morrison, taking place on Earth 1, with brand new continuity like the other Earth 1 stories. Now, we have Diana, Princess of Themyscira, which practices, shall we say...loving bondage. A lot. Diana is wooed by adventure and saving the day in 'Man's world' and sets out to get good stuff done. Unfortunately, it's not always that easy. But I'm not here to talk about Diana. No, this is her father, the predecessor villain. Enter...Hercules.

Who is Hercules?

A representation of violent, savage misogyny, Hercules appears briefly, but leaves a pretty nasty mark. Supposedly a great hero, Hercules is offended by the notion Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazons fancies herself a warrior....Hercules went after her, crushed her and the Amazons and decided to make them all slaves, plotting to give the Amazons to his men as sex slaves and rape victims, gloating how they would learn their place. It's ambiguous if the Amazons were raped, but...Herc plans to make it happen. Hippolyta on the other hand? Hercules raped her brutally, repeatedly, to 'teach her her place.'

In fact the comic starts off with Hercules having Hippolyta in chains before her Amazon sisters, screaming "To heel, bitch of Hercules," mocking how he'll keep her as his personal sex slave and she and her sisters, plus their children, will live and die by the fist of man, with his soldiers arriving to give the Amazons to. Hippolyta begs the goddesses for help and she is able to snatch back her magic girdle to empower herself, breaking free of Hercules and looping his own chain around his throat before throttling him and snapping his neck savagely, having his men wiped out and departing to Themyscira.

Mitigating Qualities?

Hercules ha very little screentime, but casts a shadow over everything to follow. Unlike his noble Marvel counterpart and even his mainstream DC counterpart (who was also responsible for the rape of the Amazons, but later repents of it...I'm saying nothing about writing quality, I'm just saying he doesn't keep) ...this Hercules is a monstrous misogynist. He plans to have all the Amazons forced into submissive sex slavery, rapes their queen and plot to turn her into his own slave....we see everything we need to and no villain gets up to this otherwise.

Conclusion?

Keep him

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#213543: May 14th 2020 at 11:15:51 PM

And one more...from Superman, the graphic novel: The Last God of Krypton. Enter Cythonna.

Who is Cythonna?

One of the first gods of Krypton, Cythonna hailed from the cold regions of space...but unlike her brethren, Cythonna had no love within her. She saw warmth, life and light and despised it with all her being. Cythonna plotted to wipe it out and birth monsters of ice and death...when she arrived at Krypton? She tried to seduce the sun god Rao. When he saw she was incapable of love and rejected her, she began a war to kill them and Krypton. The Kryptonian gods won and banished her to imprisonment....she began to gather souls of the 'unforgiving dead' and swore an oath to return if the gods faltered. Cythonna's influence even poisoned Krypton to turn them into the emotionless beings they became...and then Krypton died. Cythonna broke free and felt Superman's life force, deciding to pursue it to earth and destroy all last traces of Rao.

Arriving there, she begins examining earth and freezing things...before thinking a woman at the Daily Planet is Superman's lover and freezes her fatally, shattering her for good measure to Clark's horror. Cythonna? Begins to freeze Metropolis, plotting to wipe out all life and warmth on the world and tries to force Superman to be her lover so she may birth monsters....Cythonna enacts a new ice age very gleefully over all this, with Clark on the ropes against her. Luthor gets involved to help, and Clark leads her into space, luring her to the sun for a battle there, where she asumes her true monstrous form, with intent to violate Superman to take his body and soul alike. Lois manages to interfere in a set of Kryptonian armor...Cythonna spitefully tries to drag Lois into the sun. Clark throws a chunk of kryptonite given by Luthor which weakens Cythonna....and she falls into the core of the sun, to be trapped there for all time.

Mitigating Qualities?

For a one shot villain, Cythonna's easily bad enough; besides trying to rape Superman and destroy his soul she's wiped out multiple worlds, intending to consume all life with dark and cold. There's the fact she's a sadistic nutjob who tries to wipe out earth, casually murders people, tried to annihilate Krypton and its gods...not much else to say here.

Conclusion?

And a yes.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#213544: May 14th 2020 at 11:16:24 PM

[tup] to Hercules

Was thinking of asking about him, but the only thing I read about was the one rape he commited with the Queen and not his intentions to do way worse.

[tup] to Cthonnya too.

Edited by Kylotrope on May 14th 2020 at 8:28:54 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#213545: May 14th 2020 at 11:41:46 PM

[tup]Herc and Cythonna.

Why so serious?
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#213546: May 14th 2020 at 11:56:50 PM

[tup] Hercules and Cythonna.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#213549: May 15th 2020 at 12:44:51 AM

[tup] Heracles and Cythonna

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#213550: May 15th 2020 at 12:47:44 AM

[tup] to Cythona and Hercules (probably Hercules first incarnation as a CM)

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff

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