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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#213476: May 14th 2020 at 11:59:44 AM

I hope you are doing okay Lighty.

Yes to Ming, Annazir, Glyde, Sweeney Todd, Pavelic, and Lovecraft.

No to Elanor.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#213477: May 14th 2020 at 12:17:31 PM

Based on the EP, [tup] to Todd. INSERT SWEENEY TODD LYRIC HERE.

While taking out the trash last night, I accidentally slit my hand on a broken piece of glass. I am fine. It did not hurt that bad. Still trying to get the deep, but small wound to close though.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 14th 2020 at 12:21:02 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#213478: May 14th 2020 at 12:21:27 PM

[up] Eep, glad it's not too serious.

It's odd: You said it's deep, but doesn't hurt too bad. Paper cuts aren't deep, but hurt like hell.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#213479: May 14th 2020 at 12:43:10 PM

@ Lightysnake

Sorry bub, I already called the Superman & Lois series on February 10th sad

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#213481: May 14th 2020 at 1:03:52 PM

No to Elanor, belated yes to Sweeney. Get better Lighty!

Now then, two things bugging me on Naruto:

Firstly:

  • Naruto the Movie: Legend of the Stone of Gelel: Haido was first introduced hoping to use the Stone of Gelel to create a utopia, but in fact just wants the power. Years ago, after learning about the Stone of Gelel, hoping to find it, he attacked Temujin's village, with he and his men murdering all of the adults, including Temujin's parents. He decided to spare the children, but only because they would be more useful to him alive. Seeing Temujin's potential, he made the boy his apprentice and put one piece of the Stone in his chest while convincing the children to place their souls in armored suits, becoming mindless soldiers he had complete control over. He convinces them that killing and sacrificing their bodies are necessary, and uses them to attack entire villages in the Land of Winds while trying to find the Stone. In the climax, after reaching the Mines of Gelel, he starts assaulting everyone. Temujin tries to intervene, but when he finally recognize his parents' killer, Haido mocks Temujin for not realizing it sooner and forcibly takes the crystal he gave out of Temujin's chest, declaring him a pawn no longer useful. Transforming into a more monstrous state, he proclaims he will use his new power to enslave the world. Using lies to get away with murder, cruelty and claiming power, Haido was a depraved monster whose transformation only highlighted the ugliness he hid from others.

A little awkward in some points but not bad, I just think it could be condensed without losing anything.

  • Naruto the Movie: Legend of the Stone of Gelel:The greedy Haido seeks the Stone of Gelel, having attacked Temujin's village for it, personally killing his parents in the massacre. Sparing the children for the use he saw in them, Haido made Temujin his apprentice while having the others put their souls in suits of armor and turning them into his unquestioning soldiers. Haido uses his brainwashed army to assault the Land of Wind for the Stone and upon reaching the Mines of Gelel, Haido begins an all-out slaughter and even mocks Temujin when he realizes Haido was responsible fo his parents death. Transforming to kill his enemies, Haido proclaims with the Stone in his possession he will enslave the entire world.

Next up:

  • Path of the Ninja 2: Genshō Ryūdōin, alongside his Co-Dragons and brothers Jakō and Rokkaku, attacked and destroyed a village in the Valley of Evil in order to unseal the Spirit Beast, a giant catfish-like demon with enormous power. Genshō plans to use the Beast to destroy worthless nations and their peoples so he could rule the world. Unsealing the Beast also unleashed its evil spirits, which can make a person aggressive and obsessed with attacking other people until their deaths. When Jakō tells him the evil spirits will reach Konoha before the Beast is fully revived, Genshō smilingly replies that he can't wait for that to happens. The evil spirits eventually reached Hidden Sand Village and Konoha, corrupting their inhabitants. After Genshō absorbed the power of the Beast, he thanks Jakō for buying him some time by killing him. He then forces Naruto to watch him killing his friends by slowly draining their strength.

Mostly fine, I just don't like how his Co-Dragons are put so close to the start it seems like they're supposed to count too when the rest indicates that it's Gensh&#333 alone. I just wanna change the start to...

  • Path of the Ninja 2: Genshō Ryūdōin attacks and destroys a village to unseal the demonic Spirit Beast for its destructive power alongside his brothers Jakō and Rokkaku.

Thoughts?

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#213482: May 14th 2020 at 1:08:26 PM

Haido's looks fine, but the Gensho rewrite I feel goes in the opposite extreme of being too short.

EDIT: Never mind. Didn't read that properly.

Edited by Clown-Face on May 14th 2020 at 1:12:18 AM

Why so serious?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#213483: May 14th 2020 at 1:09:10 PM

Please add the first rewrite to the Drafts.

The problem with the second thing makes it seem like he's also trying to release his brothers. Maybe change "alongside" to "with the help of"? Or something else?

[up] That's just the first sentence. Yeah, I had to do a double-take too [lol]

Edited by ACW on May 14th 2020 at 4:09:46 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#213484: May 14th 2020 at 1:09:25 PM

[up] I'll leave exact phrasing to you.

... I'm just restructuring the first sentence, as I said... I'm not saying to cut him down to a single sentence, I think that much was clear from what I put above.

Edited by 43110 on May 14th 2020 at 4:09:50 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#213485: May 14th 2020 at 1:15:37 PM

I requested the change for the second, just replacing "alongside" to "with the help of".

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#213486: May 14th 2020 at 2:13:33 PM

[tup] to Sweeney Todd; [tdown] to Adrian and Eleanor. Get well soon, Lighty.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#213487: May 14th 2020 at 2:33:25 PM

[tup] Pavelic, Lovecraft, Annazir, Glyde and Sweeney

[tdown] Adrian and Eleanor

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#213488: May 14th 2020 at 2:44:15 PM

[tup] to Sweeney.

Feel better, Lighty

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#213489: May 14th 2020 at 2:55:07 PM

[tup] to Sweeny Todd. Well It looks like Adrian isn't going to go up due to the heinous standard, which is okay since the heinous standard is very high in that game.

Speaking of Heinous standard there is one character that I doubt count due to such and its Harlan Fontaine from L.A. Noire:

  • Dr. Harlan Fontaine is one half of the duo masterminding the plans of the Suburban Redevelopment Fund, a scheme to con money off of the city in an elaborate insurance scam. Manipulating Ira Hogeboom, a traumatized patient, Fontaine has him burn down the houses of people who refused to sell their land, only objecting to families being killed because of the bad publicity doing so would bring. When Hogeboom becomes hard to control, Fontaine decides to have a hit put out on him. Fontaine is willing to personally kill anyone who discovers his dirty secrets, even the man Fontaine had mentored and forced into dealing morphine for him.

Now then I'm having doubts that Fontaine can count due to the heinous standard as the follow points will explain.

  • I mean Harlan has Ira consists trying to have houses burned down to collect insurance money, but he doesn't want anyone to get killed in the burning houses, and was shocked people were still in those burning houses, and tries to get Ira to stop. Of course this is all for pragmatic reasons, but still Fontaine isn't trying to get those people killed as part of his plans.

  • Also Harlan murders his friend Courtney Sheldon and tries to have Ira, Elsa, and Kelso killed but murder is very common throughout the game appearing in a majority of Cole's Cases, especially if you compare him to the other murders in the game who have far higher body counts such as Mickey Cohen who arranges much of Sheldon's war buddies to get massacred, Ira who breaks free from Harlan's control and starts intentionally killing families on his own disturbing Harlan, and fellow CM Garret Mason who mutilates and murders woman while framing other people for his crimes.

Also it was Cole Phelps who mentally scarred Ira by having him burned down a makeshift Hospital of innocence, (granted Cole was an Unwitting Instigator of Doom who didn't know it was a hospital during the time, and was horrified upon learning) while Harlan exploited Ira's mental state for his own benefit.

With the points that I said about Harlan not being heinous enough, I think that perhaps we should have him cut from trope (though I am happy to hear other arguments about Harlan)

Edited by G-Editor on May 14th 2020 at 12:12:31 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#213490: May 14th 2020 at 2:59:08 PM

Cut Harlan; I was somewhat skeptical of him myself. I'm not even sure he passes the baseline.

Edited by falcontalons on May 14th 2020 at 3:01:25 AM

Riley1sCool Since: Dec, 2014
#213491: May 14th 2020 at 3:04:18 PM

Yeah, having recently played the game, I'm just not sure Harlan does enough to keep. I'd cut him.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#213493: May 14th 2020 at 3:05:56 PM

Cut Harlan. Sounds like the heinous standard is to high.

Edited by Bullman on May 14th 2020 at 5:06:24 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#213494: May 14th 2020 at 3:06:27 PM

Cut Harlan.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#213495: May 14th 2020 at 3:06:32 PM

One thing that bugs me

"Even protagonist, Cole Phelps, seems more heinous than Harlan as he was the one who mentally scarred Ira by having him burned down a makeshift Hospital of innocence, (granted Cole didn't know that during the time, and was horrified upon learning) while Harlan merely exploited Ira's mental state for his own benefit."

That sounds like Textbook Unwitting Instigator of Doom. So that wouldn't really contribute to the standard.

But the other reasons seem legit. Cut him.

Edited by Kylotrope on May 14th 2020 at 12:07:21 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#213496: May 14th 2020 at 3:08:01 PM

I'm not sure the "merely" belongs there.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#213497: May 14th 2020 at 3:13:07 PM

[up] well I just gotten rid of the "Merely" and tweaked what I said about Cole

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#213498: May 14th 2020 at 3:14:55 PM

Thing is, " exploited Ira's mental state for his own benefit" is still pretty bad, though the other points are worthwhile.

I assume Garrett still keeps?

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#213499: May 14th 2020 at 3:18:51 PM

Cut Harlan, I was always very skeptical about him but I haven't played the game so I didn't say anything.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#213500: May 14th 2020 at 3:20:32 PM

Garrett's the Black Dahlia killer. I'd argue he still keeps well indeed.


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