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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#212752: May 7th 2020 at 8:42:50 AM

[tup] Iago and the Spore. Hm. Good name for either a band or a buddy cop show.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#212753: May 7th 2020 at 8:48:08 AM

[tup] to Iago and the Spore

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#212755: May 7th 2020 at 9:38:03 AM

Okay I think I might have found another candidate from Midsomer Murders (some people might remember it as that series that Mir, Scraggle and Lighty covered a while back, the one that combines the beauty of rural England with a death count higher than most warzones).

But first quite by coincidence someone added this unapproved entry on the series YMMV page:

Having checked out the episode in question, he's bad but I don't think Quested is really bad enough for this series.

So could someone cut it please?

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#212756: May 7th 2020 at 9:43:30 AM

I’ve cut the Midsomer Murders entry.

[tdown] Yuan; [tup] Iago and Spore.

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#212757: May 7th 2020 at 9:53:38 AM

[up][up] Damn, judging by the guy's rapsheet, the heinous standard must be really high for him to fail it. [lol]

Yes to Spore.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#212758: May 7th 2020 at 10:14:39 AM

Mmm... I don't take issue with the cut—besides it being non-vetted—the fact he's trying to keep their rape culture going as opposed to having started it or anything of the sort bumps him down a notch in just being one of many people with twisted morals. Other than that he's got a few murders under his belt and tries to let someone rape his daughter... nasty but in a work with multiple stand out keepers he's not doing enough.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#212759: May 7th 2020 at 10:29:30 AM

I was just about to cut the unapproved entry, but, someone beat me to the punch.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#212761: May 7th 2020 at 11:56:42 AM

BTW, a while ago I proposed that we redorder how the CM Incarnations Per Character page was ordered (Not alphabatizing by last names). It got some discussion, and nobody disagreed with the prposal. So should I reorder the page manually, or does it get sent to the mods like the CM entries?

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#212762: May 7th 2020 at 11:59:35 AM

So, speaking of Rose/Mommy, I have some things to make clear here.

First off, for the most part she does make it clear that she is perfectly aware that Bella, Elliot, and Cole aren't her children. She says so at one point. But then there is her thinking Cole is Steven:

[Cole] took a deep breath. "She hated me when she thought I was her son. But when I was 'Steven', she would say stuff like, 'You left me. You pretended to die to get rid of me', stuff like that," he trailed off, before he shook his head. "She was fucking insane."
"What else would she tell you?" [James] asked him.
"She told me that she wished 'we' had real kids, so she wouldn't have had to steal kids instead. I would tell her over and over that I wasn't him. But she took that as Steven telling her that he didn't want to have kids with her, so she started to hate 'Steven.'"
[...]
"Why would she alternate you between her son and Steven?" Liv asked, clearly trying to gather all of this information as well. "I mean, would something trigger a switch between the two?"
Cole swallowed. "No, ah, she would just... come in the room while Bella and Elliot were sleeping. She would bring me into a different room, and that's when she would think I was him. She would talk to me... hurt me, depending on her mood, and she would also... she would..." he shook his head and stopped talking.

So she might be genuinely insane in that regard, which would introduce agency issues. She could also be fully aware that Cole is not Steven and employing some Double Think, but I'm not sure.

Also, these diary entries:

...Today, my son punched me because I knocked my daughter down. And my youngest wouldn't stop whining, that kid is annoying! My eye is bleeding now. I wish they could love me the way I love them...
...Emilio is the best for accepting my angel daughter. Though she has been nicer, I don't regret giving her away. After all, I have known Emilio since I was a little girl, he has always been great friends with Steven...
...Steven left me all alone at first. But now he is in my basement. And anyways, Steven and I had some alone time today for the first time in a while. I missed him. There was sparks like it was the first time...

So it seems like she actually likes Emilio in some capacity.

Emilio also claims that Steven abducted her, "but they fell in love," and that she "went crazy after Steven died." Of course, Rose's mother Lettie disagrees:

"Steven did not kidnap her. I know Steven. He was about twenty-five when he met my daughter, God knows how they met. [...] I told my daughter to stop, that she was only a child and that she shouldn't be messin' around with an older man. But she was a whore. That's absolutely what Rose was, a slut. She was so promiscuous, oh it broke my heart.[...] They ran away. My daughter hated my guts, and her father wanted nothing to do with her after the divorce. So she ran away with that Steven guy, and there was nothin' I could do about it. We're talking about the 50's here, what could I have done? I was all alone, and I didn't need the whore around. She made me sick."

The fact that her own mother repeatedly calls her a whore leads me to suspect child abuse, which leads back to the Freudian Excuse thing.

And when asked if there was any abuse between Rose and her father:

"There was no abuse. Although I did think she was in love with him. It was weird, you know," Lettie said. "It was a weird... weird bond. But her father was an alcoholic, did drugs, he was a regular gambler. He wasn't right in the head, so who knows?"

So Lettie admits that Rose's father might also have abused her.

There is also this note presumably written by Rose when she accidentally killed that boy she wanted, Cole's brother:

We didn't mean to do it. We meant to shoot his mother. I just wanted him to myself. We didn't mean to this time. We really didn't. I'm the only mother he can have. I made a mistake, Steven. I made a terrible mistake.

Possible regret here?

So that is everything I found. Gonna be honest, leaning no unless I can get a good explanation for all this.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#212763: May 7th 2020 at 12:00:47 PM

[up][up] I think we decided just to keep it as it is.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#212764: May 7th 2020 at 12:00:53 PM

[tdown]Rose.

That sounds like way too many issues to brush off.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#212765: May 7th 2020 at 12:04:36 PM

My cautious no is becoming a solid one. This sounds like that Vocaloid candidate who made women fall in love with them but—in that case due to the length of the song—didn't do anything to indicate to me he wasn't so insane as to think his twisted, fucked up relationship with the women was actual love. Not helped by the fact he died regretting he didn't get to tell one he loved her. This is way too sketchy for me to write off.

[down][down][down] Correct... I had forgot his name.

Edited by 43110 on May 7th 2020 at 3:05:58 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#212767: May 7th 2020 at 12:05:28 PM

Yeah, gonna have to flip to a no as well.

dragonfire5000 from Where gods fear to tread Since: Jan, 2001
#212768: May 7th 2020 at 12:05:31 PM

[up][up][up]The Duke of Venomania or something like that?

Edited by dragonfire5000 on May 7th 2020 at 12:08:45 PM

"I squirm, I struggle, ergo I am. Faced with death, I am finally, truly alive."
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#212769: May 7th 2020 at 12:09:40 PM

@ACW

I don't see any posts saying to keep it as is. It was either agreement, or suggestions on how to reorder it.

Edited by Awesomekid42 on May 7th 2020 at 3:13:14 PM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#212770: May 7th 2020 at 12:12:22 PM

A rewrite Mir asked me to do:

Current:

  • The Golden Child: Sardo Numspa is a mysterious sorcerer who tries to abduct the boy with mystic powers known as the Golden Child, intending to murder him so that he could unleash the hordes of demons from Hell that would invade the Earth. To this end, he and his men went into a Tibetan monastery and slaughtered several monks, while Numspa wastes no time kidnapping said child; it was revealed that he ordered his men to kill some children so that he could harm the Golden Child. When a social worker, Chandler Jarrell, interferes with Numspa's plan, Numspa then negotiates with Chandler to give him an artifact known as Ajanti Dagger, and when Chandler refuses, Numspa then leaves a burning mark as a warning and then lets his men torture Chandler when trying to save a young lady, Kee Nang, in his dream. After Chandler obtains the dagger, Numspa tries to have Chandler arrested, and when Chandler manages to escape from his clutches, Numspa sends his men to attack Chandler, and kills Kee Nang after the latter tries to protect Chandler from harm.

Mine:

  • The Golden Child: Sardo Numspa is an Evil Sorcerer seeks to murder the titular "Golden Child" to allow the hordes of Hell to overrun the Earth. Attacking a Tibetan monastery with his men, Numspa has the monks slaughtered and is revealed to have even ordered the murder of children to get his hands on the Golden Child. Failing to get a dagger he needs for his plans from social worker Chandler Jarrell, Numspa has Chandler tortured and when he obtains the dagger, tries to have Chandler killed, murdering a young woman who tries to protect him.

Also mini-rant here: if your character is mentally ill in any way, bring it up thoroughly. They don't suddenly get a pass because they're really mean to their victims. As I've stated a few times, I hoped Rotwang to count and Lighty had to talk me out of it but in spite of trying to rape someone he thinks is the (now dead) woman he loved but every indication is the whole reason he's a villain is because her death drove him off the ledge and we're no longer seeing the man he used to be. That's a no right there. End game. His crimes no longer matter, you can't be discussed at this point. The effort post here mistaking what a Freudian Excuse had to do to invalidate, the points jumping back and forth and the "Yeah, she's schizophrenic but she can generally tell who the kids are so it's fine" do not merit a full enough discussion.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#212771: May 7th 2020 at 12:46:59 PM

I'm not trying to call anything out here, really I'm not...but this is giving me real concerns for things with Echoes otherwise. I don't think any of this is malicious, but there's a failure to discuss potential seriously mitigating qualities in depth, and Georgie reported he may have erred on that with the Warlord..

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#212772: May 7th 2020 at 12:50:18 PM

As we just talked about this, I concur. I’m not saying this with any malice but I have no faith Echoes was properly assessed in any way shape or form and the two cuts thanks to egregious errors in interpretation make me want the whole page gone. For one reason or another, we seem to have a series of characters that someone wants to see as this trope, as opposed to them actually meeting the criteria for it and this has lead to problems like people wanting Ellen up for five years and fighting tooth and nail for a character who was put up in the first place because of a horrible misinterpretation of her character.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#212774: May 7th 2020 at 12:55:50 PM

Yes to Iago and Spore. Switching to no on Rose.

Edited by Bullman on May 7th 2020 at 3:00:17 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#212775: May 7th 2020 at 12:59:40 PM

[up][up][up]In case of Ellen, it may be because of the horrible things she did to her friend and the ending, where she too sadistic glee in telling said mutilated dying friend on how she will be living her life now, while manipulating the father of this friend to kill her.

These sadistic actions (which Ellen showed to enjoy doing) made people think that she was irredemable and thus fit enough for the trope.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on May 7th 2020 at 11:01:27 AM


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