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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#212651: May 6th 2020 at 3:52:35 PM

[up] at some point the resources argument stops applying and i think it does here

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#212652: May 6th 2020 at 3:53:08 PM

Switching to a no on the witch.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#212653: May 6th 2020 at 3:53:53 PM

Switching to a no on the witch.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#212654: May 6th 2020 at 3:54:42 PM

Okay [tdown]Witch

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#212655: May 6th 2020 at 3:55:43 PM

Okay. It seems that i lost the case. Really seemed that she stood out, considering that comics and books are set in "Bioware AU" (as stated by developers) and there was no one else at her level, who burned villages (literally everyone else was backed by higher power).

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#212656: May 6th 2020 at 3:57:19 PM

Switching to abstain on the witch. Is this canon with the games?

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#212657: May 6th 2020 at 3:59:28 PM

I think the issue is, through DA? There are loads of depraved customers. Even minor demons get up to a ton of evil, and when random Orlesian commanders are participating in frequent murdering and slaughter for Ferelden...

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#212658: May 6th 2020 at 4:02:18 PM

[up]But they did this by the order of the usurper.

Do demons have agency issues btw?

Also, this page says that IDW comic set outside of main contunity of DA.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on May 6th 2020 at 2:06:38 PM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#212659: May 6th 2020 at 4:07:25 PM

Dpn't sapient beings without agency issues still affect the heinous standard? Also, being ordered to do something by a ruler does not mean having access to all that ruler's resources

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#212660: May 6th 2020 at 4:10:30 PM

From the past few posts, switching to [tdown] to the witch.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#212661: May 6th 2020 at 4:10:34 PM

[up][up]It does mean that said ruler backing you up with his forces (or part of them at least) and his authority.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on May 6th 2020 at 2:10:46 PM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#212662: May 6th 2020 at 4:14:37 PM

That still doesn't mean a random peasant has higher resources than a witch

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#212663: May 6th 2020 at 4:17:30 PM

An underling isn't absolved of guilt because they were told to do something. We probably won't approve them as CM if everything they do is under someone's direction and commit no further crimes of their own but "part of an army" doesn't mean they don't affect the heinous standard.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#212664: May 6th 2020 at 4:20:48 PM

I mean, not seeing how the AU argument is making sense for it to be DA? And DA is also a story dependent on player choice

Edited by Lightysnake on May 6th 2020 at 4:24:57 AM

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#212665: May 6th 2020 at 4:22:33 PM

I vaguely remembering reading the comic. The story was… not good.

But back to the topic: I’ll give the Witch a [tup].

She has fewer resources that most other villains (5 bandits isn't a lot) and her group comes across as far worse than the average bandit group encountered in the game who do rob and kill people but don't burn down whole villages. I’m also not sure whether or not Darkspawn or Demons actually affect the heinous standard due to most of them lacking moral agency.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#212666: May 6th 2020 at 4:25:55 PM

[up][up]Yeah, thats why Bioware separated their EU material from games (since they write such material with specific choices made in the games in mind) and the comic was made by IDW, before Bioware sold the rights to Dark Horse, putting the comic aside from the rest of the media.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on May 6th 2020 at 2:28:29 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#212667: May 6th 2020 at 4:28:30 PM

Alright...I'm not really getting the AU argument cause that's just weird. DA has never followed a linear story, but...I mean, I guess she might keep then? There's one minor guy from the comics I'd like to qualify (Captain Devon,) but I think he's out-heinoused handily

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#212668: May 6th 2020 at 4:32:09 PM

What does Devon do?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#212669: May 6th 2020 at 4:39:33 PM

Devon was a slave trader with a ton of elf slaves in his hold. When his ship was run down by an Orlesian vessel (Orlesians hang slavers), he threw the elves overboard, weighted by their chains and collars, to drown in horrible terror and pain.

Anyways...new post for right now:

What's the work?

Saints and Sinners is a 2010 action film directed by William Kaufman starring Johnny Strong and Kevin Philips. Sean Riley is a New Orleans cop reeling from the death of his son by cancer and the resulting end of his marriage. Set on a case with some savage murders with a new partner, a family man named Ganz, where he learns an old buddy of his fell in with some bad people...enter the man behind it: Raymond Crowe.

Who is Raymond Crowe?

Played by Costas Mandylor, Croweis a thug who works as head of security for the company Spartan, a PMC...when serving in a military operation, an illegal shipment was found by soldiers. Crowe? Executed them all and was caught on camera by Colin, the old friend of Siley who went to ground, knowing he was a dead man if it was exposed. Terrified, he enlisted the help of a host of others. Sent by his boss, Spartan head, Mr. Rhykin, Crowe takes to the streets to recover that video...the way he does this? Abducts the people working with Colin and people they're close to.

Now, first off, Crowe's nickname is "Baba Yaga" because when he came to America, he had a job sweeping in a funeral parlor, just like a witch with a broomstick...so he cut off his friends' hands for mocking him. Keeping the name to terrify others, Crowe burns his victims alive. He keeps them strapped down, lights them up...then puts the fire out, asks them more and sets them alight again...he's introduced doing this, decides a victim can't help and just burns him. And he' done it a lot until his gang are caught by Riley attacking Colin's girlfriend Sasha. His men are killed and Crowe is given more exposure than he'd like. Oh, and thanks to him? He's disguised it as a series of gang hits, one victim being the little brother of a feared gang lord, who blames his rivals and begins an open war.

Crowe later kidnaps and burns Sasha alive, which Riley blames Colin for when he finds him. Colin, realizing what he' brought about, sacrifices his life and Crowe has Riley's boss gunned down, kidnapping him before going after Ganz to burn him alive. Ganz begs he has a family and Crowe? Coldly asks his men why they didn't think that was important...ordering said family (wife, little kids) abducted to be burned if Ganz doesn't give him the info. Riley busts in and frees Ganz, with them wiping out the bad guys...Crowe is wounded almost fatally...when Weddo, the gang lord arrives, who has been told what' really happened....and takes Crowe away for torture and murder as he scream for mercy, as Spartan is left to be exposed.

Heinousness?

Crowe answers to Mr. Rhykin and knows it...but Rhykin has like a minute of screentime and just amounts to: "get me the disc" with all else Spartan does (basically every illegal activity known to man) being offscreen villainy. Every operation in the movie, the burning people alive? Crowe.

Mitigating Qualities?

Nothing. his men seem to be friends (Riley even escapes by provoking several how he killed their fellow mook)...but Crowe doesn't seem to care. In fact, he boasts how he mutilated some of his old friends over something as petty as a disfavored nickname. Besides that, no. He's just a murderous bastard.

Conclusion?

Yea

Edited by Lightysnake on May 6th 2020 at 4:43:40 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#212670: May 6th 2020 at 4:39:44 PM

I'll give a tentative [tup] to the witch

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#212671: May 6th 2020 at 4:40:05 PM

[tup]Crowe

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#212672: May 6th 2020 at 4:47:32 PM

[tup]Raymond Crowe

In case of Devon, it doesn't help that Isabella was in on it and considering how she talked about it, she might have suggested it in the first place.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#212673: May 6th 2020 at 4:49:00 PM

Yes to Crowe.

[down]Yes to Kamsa; second incarnation of him to qualify.

Edited by falcontalons on May 6th 2020 at 5:05:11 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#212674: May 6th 2020 at 4:59:17 PM

Regading Isabela, I think she makes it pretty clear that it was Devon's idea. But she let it happen. Devon was the one actually throwing them overboard.

I've also got like a fuckton of comic ones thanks to Comixology, more tabletop... so let's get one down:

What's the work?

Krishna: A Journey Within is a graphic novel by Abhishek Singh about the live of Krishna, gorgeously illustrated....now, Krishna was smuggled away at birth, taken to be raised elsewhere, lest he draw the wrath of his wicked uncle Kamsa, the tyrant...the first truly evil foe he faces.

Who is King Kamsa?

A bloated, hedonistic tyrant who runs his land in misery, despair and torture...Kamsa is first seen savagely whipping a bound man for fun, regularly going on hunts of rare animals to kill them, terrorizing and killing anyone who speaks out. Kamsa is brother to Krishna's mother Devaki, who married a handsome man named Vasudev...Kamsa, in those days? Thought it was wonderful and married them in a grand ceremony. He thought he loved her....until he heard a prophecy that their eighth child would be his ruin. Kamsa snapped and imprisoned the couple They promised to give Kamsa their eighth child, Vasudev begging for mercy for Devaki...Kamsa took out a flower with eight petals, declaring "I want them all."

every child they had? Kamsa savagely bashed it to death on stones in front of them without mercy....until Krishna was born...with powers even as a child, Vasudev got Krishna to safety, and Krishna was raised in peace and security, knowing he had to return one day to battle his uncle. Arriving in the capital of Mathura,we see Kamsa runs it brutally, "suffocated by a madman." Kamsa is out on a hunt, killing beautiful things for sport, claiming Krishna's flayed skin will join his latest quarry's. Kamsa sends demon after demon, but Krishna bests them all. Krishna ends up facing Kamsa, who orders Devaki be dragged in to watch her final child die...Krishna defeats and kills Kamsa at last.

Mitigating Qualities?

Okay, so Kamsa starts as seemingly a nice guy...except it's made clear he was always a psycho despot waiting to snap. Krishna says Kamsa only thought he loved Devaki. The second she was a great, he lost it on her, and takes relish tormenting her, and forcing her in watching him kill her babies. He kills seven, tries to kill the eighth, tortures loads of people and is just anasty bastard in general. Nothing else to really say here. He's a monstrous sadist without a speck of goodness to him.

Conclusion?

Easy yes.

Edited by Lightysnake on May 6th 2020 at 5:00:06 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#212675: May 6th 2020 at 5:02:07 PM

[tup]Kamsa

Would he be a keeper in Hindu mythology ? Sounds like the crimes are quite similar

Also fun fact. In the original mythology. Kamsa is actually the reincarnation of an evil demon that Lord Krishna slayed in a previous life. So this is them fighting in round two.

Edited by miraculous on May 6th 2020 at 5:11:51 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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