During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Zaragosa
I have a question? Is the image on Final Fantasy page is fit enough for the trope? All it provides is a quote, the rest if a is a villain standing and doing nothing, looking at the side. Doesn't help that it's a bunch of pixels and Kefka doesn't look evil at all.
I found these tropes on Legends!Tarkin's character page:
- Even Evil Has Loved Ones: He genuinely loved his son. Unfortunately, this is a rare negative example as his sons death only led him to commit worse acts in revenge.
- He also loved his brother Gideon and niece Rivoche, and he took the latter in after the former died. And was actually a good parental substitute, considering Rivoche was something of a Spoiled Brat but later became the one Tarkin to be an objectively good person...
- Papa Wolf: In "Darth Vader and the Lost Command 5", the results of Darth Vader's mission resulted in Tarkin wanting to commit genocide against the natives of Altoa because he thought they murdered his son, and it is also heavily implied in the ending that Palpatine manipulated Vader's actions to bring this about to get Tarkin to become a more willing (and more ruthless) servant. It worked.
Goku Black
Zaragosa
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Mother
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yes to Zaragosa, cut Mother, I've taken care of the Gamebooks linking, and I'd be fine if we get a better Final Fantasy image.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
to Zaragosa.
The Draftsman of Doom
We actually did look that up for Tarkin. He never really expresses any love for said family
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Yes to Zaragosa. Cut Mother (feels weird to say that now when I used to defend her inclusion. But hey, if 43 saw the movie and disagreed...).
Speaking of rather unique parents, any other opinion on "Mommy"?
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on May 6th 2020 at 4:33:03 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Showtime!
Given you were referencing the EP Georgie and at least one paragraph in it was blatantly false in assumption, I'm not going to fault you bud.
Mommy and Mother.
Also Georgie when defending Mother initially you mentioned your candidate Alpha in reference and looking back at the EP there indeed weren't a whole lot of questions asked about her wanting to make a Utopia or her subordinate who brings us this part of the post: 'In Five (one of her Co-Dragons)'s words :"Alpha pities me, and gave me a purpose, but she would sacrifice me in a heartbeat for the sake of her utopia, and not feel any regret. All of it, for a dream that will never come true… perhaps in another world? I am not very familiar with how this whole multiverse crap works."'
Can we... seriously expand on this? It's getting dangerously close to when people wanted 2014!Thanos to count and I'm quite leery.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
I'm not sure what is exactly your question, but to sum up Alpha's case, she pretends to care for her fellow clones (Five included), but ultimately doesn't. Her vision of an utopia is utterly selfish to the core, as she killed off 90% of the world's population, and anyone living with her in her "Utopia" is actually brainwashed into obeying her. Despite essentially controlling the world and having the power to improve her fellow clones's situations (such as Five, again), she doesn't. Her ultimate plan is to make everyone "happy", by destroying all free will and enslave or kill anyone who isn't her. Her fellow clones, while obeying her, have several biological issues leading to an all-time low life expectancy (days, hours and months, IIRC), and while Alpha has the power to save them and improve their situation, she doesn't for the sake of her "Utopia".
Again, not sure if I understood your concern, so perhaps I misunderstood it.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
There become problems when said servants are quite happy to die for her cause and there becomes question about if she thinks her utopia is better for everyone. On paper we could try to say Thanos doesn't care for his children and his desire to recreate the world is a selfish one but when you observe how it goes down...
Remember you yourself downvoted Ellie feeling she believed her society was best for people and she had forced conformity surgery and torture and execution of dissidents en masse performed.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Oh, I see what you're talking about. But her servants aren't all happy to die for her (they're serving her because she's a clone as well, and killed Madara and Hashirama who abused them. As far as they know, she's still the revolutionary they once knew, not the tyrant she became). Five actually openly disagrees with Alpha and is aware that how much of an horrible human being Alpha is. He serves her out of spite towards non-clone humans, and because Alpha is the only one that gives him a purpose and has the power to save him, but he no longer has any love for Alpha. In fact, when Good!Orochimaru takes over? The clones are more than happy, because not only Orochimaru actively keeps his promise and starts researching a way to save them, but treats them much, much better than Alpha ever did. Alpha's desire of an utopia is at worst Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist, at best a vicious Knight Templar.
But yeah, let's not be a hypocrite and might as well cut Alpha.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Okay, I think I get how this is looking...valid concerns, but you are answering them for me, reading the EP
The Draftsman of Doom
Abstain on Alpha.
Feels good, don't it?
Eh... it's still dicey to me and don't take this the wrong way but this is the same series that brought us the Warlord aka "FE isn't shown... wait, okay it's shown but has nothing to do with what he's doing now... wait, okay it might be related but..." I'm honestly leaning on a cautious nay here.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
And also the series that brought up Orochimaru being elected president. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
That being said, here's the tally for Alpha :
Keep :
Abstain : SkyCat32, miraculous, nwotyzal, Libraryseraph (but leaning keep), falcontalons
Cut : 43, myself
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Especially since it's Good!Orochimaru. Got to thank him for creating a Republic in Naruto.
Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on May 7th 2020 at 8:04:21 PM
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Goku Black
Abstain on Alpha.
Tbh considering some actual politicians who are world leaders at the moment. Orchimaru might be a step up.
Edited by miraculous on May 6th 2020 at 9:40:35 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
I'm gonna take a break from this thread because I haven't been feeling so good mentally and I need to focus on other things at the moment.
One thing before I go: we have Ultraman from the New 52 up, but didn't it say that morality on Earth-3 is warped (evil is considered good and vice versa)? If so, should that affect create some agency issues?
abstain on Alpha
Edited by nwotyzal on May 6th 2020 at 9:46:06 AM
Showtime!
Abstain on alpha, leaning keep
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Why would that cause agency issues? That's basically just a Mirror Universe in a nutshell.
Edited by Bullman on May 6th 2020 at 11:50:03 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Yeah, mirror-univeres are just "places where XYZ happened." There's not a cosmic force driving them to evil
You can request those sorts of things without consulting the thread.