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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

krimzonflygon2 Since: Jul, 2013
#211001: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:14:19 PM

Yeah, that series is where I got the notion he doesn't count. Depending on the Writer and all, even discounting how he could just be lying, but I was under the impression that being sympathetic and/or well-intentioned discounts someone.

It's that No Place for Me There part that really gets me, and how far it does or does not go. On the one hand, it could mean he dies and is worshiped afterward as a god by humanity's successors, and his line about infamy definitely leans toward that. On the other, he says that there would be no place for him in paradise.

And the fact remains that of all the Complete Monsters in 40K, Erebus, Vect, von Strab and Failbaddon the Harmless, Bile's the only one who could maybe possiibly be considered remotely sympathetic.

Edited by krimzonflygon2 on Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:18:11 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#211002: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:22:42 PM

Remember he also thinks he lives on through his work and deeds. He’s not out to perform a sacrifice to save others

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#211003: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:22:53 PM

Since nombretomado stated that well, fanfic candidates posted by their own creator must be cut, and since I've read ClownFace's Kids World, well, I can start with re-evaluating Annis.

What's the work?

Kids World is a Inside Out fanfic written by ClownFace under the name "Lord Candycane". The story was published between July 9 and October 9, 2015.

See, Riley left Minnesota for San Francisco. There, she gained new friends : Harold The Cynic, Harriet and Madison, but her closest friend there was Annis, an Adorkable and Innocently Insensitive, auburn-haired girl. Everything looked good until a toxic gas was released from a local chemical plant. Then, it vanished...

Cue a sudden remake of Seuls with everyone in the United States older than 12 dying off in two months, with no one able to develop a cure fast enough. All they could do is to prepare those 12 years old and younger to face the world without them (no adult from the rest of the world could help them in any way ? Not even Madagascar? I'm sure their adults survived!). Understandably, Riley is broken by her parents' deaths. Annis had a much easier time moving on and convinces Riley to join a couple of kids living with her in Riley's neighborhood, in a hotel. Not wanting to be alone, Riley accepted.

"It's okay. This will all turn out alright.", said Annis.

I'm pretty sure both Riley and Annis wished it was actually the case, especially the Annis Riley used to know.

Who's Annis? What has she done?

Annis, one day, after a bad week, had an idea. First, alongside a couple of kids, she went in the arsenals and police stations in the city, and took all the guns. Why, you may ask? Because she had a plan. After hearing Riley mention that there was no order in the city, Annis decided she had to bring said order in the city. The guns were there to keep people in check. And she took over the city, kidnapping and assigning the younger kids who chose to obey her (otherwise? Starvation!) to her "enforcement children", and one of them, Caroline, was assigned to Riley (who became Annis's Dragon). She also forced the kids to live nearby, threatening to shoot anyone who tries to disobey. And she kidnapped her enforcers' siblings to force them to obey her.

Later on, when a boy threw a snowball in her face, Annis orders to capture him, with... dubious intentions. The boy screamed. When 5 children cornered Annis, Riley and Annis's other underlings saved her. The children, you may ask? They are forced to starve for three days.

When rebel kids found guns, they tried to rebel, leading to a gunfight. However, Riley, alone, was a big reason why Annis's side won, is wounded. While everyone congratulates her for a well-done job, Annis's compliment is quick, cold, before she leaves, showing that she is slowly distancing herself from Riley.

The next day, Annis called all of the kids for a demonstration. There, she called someone called Jimmy Jackson, whom she wanted to recruit. Jimmy declined.

"Surprisingly, (Annis) smiled and nodded." Before threatening to kill Jimmy's infant sister.

Of course, this is rather Harmful to Minors and Riley sneaks out of the demonstration with Caroline to make sure the latter doesn't see that. However... Annis wanted Riley to stay. So, later on, when Annis and Riley were together, alone, Annis sweetly smiled and "slid her hand through Riley's hair, luring her into a false sense of security". Before slamming her face in a wall, berating her for playing "kiddies games" with Caroline, instead of molding her into obeying Annis. Riley states she understands, and Annis releases her, hugs her and leaves her alone.

After these... unfortunate events, one of Annis's underlings mentions that she placed her enforcers in any escape route around the city, with the implication that she isn't just going to stop with San Francisco.

After saving a girl from psycho lesbians (sorry Delphine, libraryseraph), Caroline and Riley walk away, with the latter asking the former to try and talk Annis into stopping all this violence.

Riley walks into Annis nearly drowning a girl, and asks her if they can talk at dinner. Annis accepts, and Riley tries to convinces her to stop... She hasn't even finished her first sentence that Annis accuses Riley of being ungrateful and obeying Caroline more than Annis. When Riley apologizes, Annis smiles, humiliates Riley further and seemingly calms down...

Upon seeing Harold and his assigned brother Jake narrowly escape their burning helicopter, Annis had an idea... She forces Caroline to set on fire a building.

Kids were inside it, BTW.

The next day, Riley walks into Annis accidentally killing a girl... But showing as much regret about it as a willing suicide-bomber cares about his life.

After that, Riley says Screw This, I'm Outta Here! and tries to leave with Caroline. Annis only manages to make them stay with a last minute guilt trip.

When Brooke tries to escape the city to look for her 1-year old little brother, she tries to hide in Riley's home. She first refuses, but Caroline convinces her into accepting. However, Annis's underlings manages to capture Brooke. Annis, to punish Brooke, forces her to watch as she tries to feed said brother to a pack of dogs. She's stopped by Caroline, at a price : Annis instead gives Caroline a vicious No-Holds-Barred Beatdown. She's only spared from further harm thanks to Riley asking Annis to stop. Annis obliges... Before later on ordering Harold to assassinate her. She announces the sad news to Caroline... Before later on mocking her about it, while also mocking her for being unable to save her parents either (you'd think someone who lost her parents to the exact same circumstances would have a little more compassion). And beating down Riley with the hockey stick Riley's mother gave her before snapping it in two. Annis then left with her underlings. Destination? A school where a hundred kids were hiding. She plans to force them to obey her. When a snowball thrown at her face states their opinion of her, she orders her army to fire at them... Before bringing out a rocket launcher. Yes, she plans to fire a rocket at the school. Riley tries to stop her, again, trying to talk her into stopping this. Failure, and if there was anything left of her friendship with Annis, it's definitely gone, at least on Annis's side of things, because, well, Riley doesn't obey her. Annis then throws Riley off the bridge when the latter manages to throw the rocket launcher there. However, Annis's bodyguards manage to recover the rocket launcher, and Annis fires. There's little need to say what happened to the school, while Annis and her underlings capture as much children as they can.

However, Caroline was alive all along (Harold faked her death) and saves Riley, before they both flee the scene. This did not go unnoticed by one of Annis's underlings, who promptly told her what he saw. Annis deduces that Harold didn't kill Caroline as asked and orders him and Jake to find Caroline and Riley, kill the latter and capture the former. Unknownbenost to Annis, Harold and Riley chose instead to pull off a Heel–Face Turn and free Brooke, realizing that Annis was at this point nothing more than a Ax-Crazy nut.

An accurate statement since Annis tries to reinforce her control over the city and catch any kids trying to evade her. To pressure them further into going outside (at the mercy of her goons and thus having to join her), she set on fire any building where the kids are hiding, uncaring if she captured every kid inside or not.

Upon joining Riley and Caroline, Harold, Brooke and Jake reveal the true extent of Annis's plan : she wants to take over the whole country and force her vision of order down every single American kid's throat.

Meanwhile, Riley raises her own army as well, with her childhood friend Meg, Harold, Jake, Brooke, Caroline, every kid who hasn't been captured by Annis and Annis's hostages joining her in her quest to stop Annis.

Meanwhile, Annis prepared her army to invade Minnesota, just to spite Riley. Riley manages to reach her before she leaves San Francisco, and tries again to talk her into stopping. Annis tries one last time to manipulate Riley into joining her again, but ultimately, both stood by their positions. In a rage, Annis forces Riley and one of her underlings Gregory to fight to the death, implicitly threatening Gregory's sister should Gregory refuses. Riley wins the fight but refuses to kill Gregory, and Annis orders her army to kill her as a result. However, the imprisoned children are reunited with their siblings, thanks to Caroline, Harold and Meg. Out of spite, Annis tries to shoot Caroline, but Riley tackles her former friend and they end up fighting. Riley gives her a Breaking Speech to dismantle her so-called good intentions, sending Annis through a Villainous Breakdown. Annis tries to stab Riley, but Riley evades her and flees the scene to avoid anyone else getting hurt, pursued by her mad former friend. Annis gets her butt kicked in the ensuing fight, with the mob of kids watching the whole scene. Pretty much everyone on Annis's side pulled a Heel–Face Turn at this moment, and Riley tries to redeem Annis once again. Annis does seriously considers the offer, but refuses and flees, followed by Riley. The whole chase leads Annis and Riley to be trapped atop a building. Riley still tries to redeem her former friend, but Annis refuses and states that she will find children to follow her. She tries to attack Riley again, but they fall off the building, and ends up in a alley, trapped by Annis's dog pack (whom she abused and starved, BTW). Riley tries to save Annis, and the latter shows her gratitude by shoving Riley into the pack, hoping they'd kill Riley instead. However, Riley manages to calm them down by singing a tune Annis taught her. Annis does the rational thing and does the same, especially since she's the one who taught Riley the tune to begin with.

Just kidding, despite having seen Riley's method she doesn't imitates her and tries to pet them. They bite her hand and devour her, "extending her suffering" while doing so.

Riley still cares about her former best friend however, mourns her, and buries her (or rather, what's left of her) next to her parents.

Heinousness?

Annis is the heinous standard. Barring the unnamed psycho lesbians molesting an unnamed girl, every single villain obeys Annis. Mass murder, child murder, baby murder, animal abuse, Bad Boss, and pretty much everything she did to Riley and Caroline.

Redeeming qualities? Freudian Excuse?

Dr. Enkoom : "Hello Professor Georgie."
Pr. Georgie : "Hello Doctor Enkoom."
Dr. Enkoom : "Can you please use your redeeming qualities and Freudian Excuse detector on subject Annis?"
Pr. Georgie : "By all means, Dr. Enkoom!"

Report n° 1

Annis and Riley are best friends.

Dr. Enkoom : "THAT'S FORTUNE COOKIE NONSENSE! Your detector must be damaged, sir! Annis's hatred slowly began to outweight her love for Riley, ultimately overriding it. At the end, the only emotion she has when thinking about Riley is hate. Nothing else. NEXT!"

Report n°2

"Annis lost her parents."

Dr. Enkoom : "PROSPETUROUS! Your detector is obsolete, sir! Every single character in the story has that Freudian Excuse! Every single one! None of them came close to touching the sheer level of depravity that Annis incarnates. That, and she quickly moved on from her parents' deaths, and never mentions her again. She even mocks Riley for being unable to save her parents, who died under the exact same circumstances as Annis's parents!"

Report n°3

"Riley still loves Annis in spite of everything she's done and the story admits that she has a point."

Dr. Enkoom : "Your detector's damage is the only thing superior to your incompetence sir. Villain Has a Point and Even Evil Can Be Loved aren't disqualifying in the slightest. Point is, a villain with a point is still a villain. Yeah, Riley still loves Annis, but Annis loathes Riley and is obsessed with her."

Report n°4

"Annis is a Well-Intentioned Extremist."

Dr. Enkoom : "SOTTISES ! BALIVERNES ! Annis is nothing more than a vicious Knight Templar out to impose her vision of order to every single American! While her goals were originally well-intentioned and inspired by Riley, her good intentions were replaced by her obsession with control. She wants to control everything, not caring if she has to kill for that.

Annis is pure evil, nothing else. Her redeeming qualities are ultimately thrown away, her Freudian Excuse doesn't excuse her crimes at all, and she has no love towards anyone. What she wants is people obeying her. She doesn't want to love anyone, and she hated and tried to repeatedly kill the one person she once truly loved because she disagreed with her. Update your detector, you incompetent fool!"

Pr. Georgie : "Yes, sir..." 😢

Generic Doomsday Villain concerns?

HASHE. She starts out as a mere Adorkable girl, but then, Character Development kicks in and she becomes a dictator and worsens constantly, removing any redeeming quality she ever had.

Any other mitigating factors ?

None that I can think of.

Verdict ?

ClownFace replied in a comment with these words : "Yeah, as you'll find out, Annis isn't exactly the most ideal of best friends."

A... More than accurate statement.

Edited by GeorgieEnkoom on Jun 11th 2020 at 4:16:09 PM

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#211004: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:25:53 PM

[up] Does it have sufficient plot and setting besides Annis' evil deeds? Nvm, leaning [tup].

Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 23rd 2020 at 4:28:13 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#211005: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:29:52 PM

Yes to Annis. I've read it before. I think she's an easy keep.

[up] And yes it does have a plot beyond the evil deeds from my memory. Such as Riley growing up and becoming a big sister. Though it has been a while since I have read it. So I'm a little fuzzy on that last part and don't remember if they call each other sisters.

Edited by Bullman on Apr 23rd 2020 at 3:36:30 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
krimzonflygon2 Since: Jul, 2013
#211006: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:33:23 PM

@Bile

He also said 'first among the foundations'. Which would win him more infamy: ruling over the new humanity as a psychotic dictator who would continue to indulge his wicked whims, thus having more atrocities to be infamous for, or accepting his work is complete and withdrawing from this paradise one way or the other?

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#211010: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:44:55 PM

Bile choosing one way over another doesn’t give him more redeeming features

DelphineTheDelphox I thought sharks were my friends. from The Alola Region Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Squeeeeeeeeeeeee!
I thought sharks were my friends.
#211011: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:50:12 PM

No comment on Annis.

RIP KissAnime.
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#211012: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:51:41 PM

I am staying out of the Bile debate. As I know nothing about the franchise.

Edited by Bullman on Apr 23rd 2020 at 3:52:11 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
hegelvonaxel Since: Feb, 2018
#211013: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:54:23 PM

Would anyone who knows the work rewrite this?

  • Anime/Gasaraki:
    • Kazukiyo is the eldest son from the Gowa family. He assassinates a minister of justice in what looks like a tragic road accident, has soldiers injected with Psycho Serum and forced to pilot the series' mecha for 36 hours straight (something that his brother Kiyotsugu refuses to do), provide assistances to a Well-Intentioned Extremist, allowing him to stage a coup, uses his own little sister Misuzu in an experiment due to her powers as a kai (empath that can synch with the Humongous Mecha from the series) (something that, again, Kiyotsugu objects to), and commits patricide (and when his dad was trying to save Misuzu from him) in order to achieve his goal of power.
    • His very ancient predecessor, Tsuna Watanabe, isn't any better, deliberately having the city of Kyoto set on fire, letting the firestorm of Gasaraki be summoned, and then torturing Yushiro by shooting him in the knees with arrows when he refuses to let the summoning continue

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#211014: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:54:36 PM

Abstaining on Bile due to having no knowledge whatsoever of the franchise.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#211016: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:56:33 PM

I will also abstain due to lack of familiarity on Bile.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#211017: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:57:08 PM

Keep Bile.

Ugh....something about Annis being re-effort-posted kinda rubs me the wrong way. She's a character that, nowadays, I wouldn't have effort-posted, both because I was the writer and also, admittedly, due to the setting change, but I suppose it's fine.

Edited by Clown-Face on Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:01:06 AM

Why so serious?
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#211018: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:57:25 PM

[tup] to Annis, leaning towards keep on Bile

NattesNovgrel from The Middle of Misery, South of Iowa Since: Apr, 2020
#211019: Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:01:24 PM

Welp, looks like I had a lot of catching up to do.

[tup] Lunar, Russ (sounds like a good Hate Sink as well), Stitches, Kassen, and Eminence.

Abstain on Wiggly and Trochin.

I know little about W 40 K, but he sounds like he stays.

Edited by NattesNovgrel on Apr 23rd 2020 at 5:03:03 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#211020: Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:07:28 PM

I’m generally uncomfortable with the standard we call we let things be called a total reimagining of a a work so I’m staying out of this bus if others don’t mind I have no issue with her staying up. I’ve already given her that writeup.

krimzonflygon2 Since: Jul, 2013
#211021: Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:21:36 PM

@Lighty

I'd argue the opposite.

Bile has decided to go with making an era of peace and prosperity for either humanity or their successors, depending on which is left alive by the time his experiments are done. Whatever selfish reason he may have for it, the fact remains that his ultimate goal is to make a paradise, as opposed to turning the whole galaxy into his laboratory/torture chamber for all time or something.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#211022: Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:24:22 PM

Done for selfish reasons and a god complex, that’s not redeeming.

krimzonflygon2 Since: Jul, 2013
#211023: Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:27:40 PM

[up] If this were any other franchise but 40K, I'd agree...

GeorgieEnkoom Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II from Somewhere. Since: Feb, 2017 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
#211024: Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:28:22 PM

Going to agree with Lighty there. Otherwise, Enemy Mine would be disqualifying.

J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#211025: Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:28:50 PM

It’s still not. You’ve made your point and the forum can vote. If people say keep him then he’s still an example.

Creating perfection in his own image is not a good thing

Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:29:52 AM


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