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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#210977: Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:10:18 AM

@Lighty: I wasn't here when the original EP was done (when the hell did I even first join this forum again?) so I didn't cast a vote then. And while I do agree that Nix is needlessly sadistic, when you stack him against all the other villains spread across the show, that's not enough. Again, there was a guy who threatened to cut out a baby way back in Season 2, before Nix even show up.

[down] I gotcha.

Edited by Tyk5919 on Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:13:56 PM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#210978: Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:10:55 AM

Oh, not arguing against you there, mate. Just want everyone to have the proper context for the EP and arguments used to keep initially.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#210979: Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:22:05 AM

@ACW: As chase said, Mecha Sonic is never referred to as "Metallic" in the original series, so no need for that. As for Tails being a kid, mmmmm I guess a mention that he kills "all of Sonic and Shadow's friends, including the young Tails" can be slipped in, not absolutely necessary but it could help.

@43110: Very much in approval of the Rickshaw rewrite, excellent work!

Yeah, as the one who brought up Nix in our conversations, I really, really don't think he should be listed. I could maybe, maybe, see keeping Nix in a crime film or some such. But for Justified? In the 3 seasons I've watched, even putting aside the Big Bad villains who have damn high heinousness, we've got:

  • Travers who kills a partner and threatens to Cold-Blooded Torture a guy to possibly death

  • Jess Timmons who kidnaps a pregnant woman, tries to cut her baby out of her without anesthesia to then sell said baby on a black market, kills his horrified partner when the guy tries to save the poor woman, and then threatens to shoot the woman in the belly and "splatter her baby all over the walls" when confronted by Raylan.

  • James Earl Dean who's a repeat child molester who kidnaps a 14 year old and plans to make her his Sex Slave while threatening to kill her elderly father if she fights him.

  • Hell, a completely nameless crook gets money from a couple to smuggle them across the Mexican border, only to betray and stab the man near-fatally then try to rape his girlfriend.

So yeah, killing, torturing, and even attempted rape is pretty common in the series, and I'm only 3 seasons in. Taking into account the baddies Tyk has listed as well?

I may not have seen the whole show yet, and usually I'd reserve myself to waiting until completion....but damn, and I say this in the most reasonable way possible, I don't see any way that Nix stands out. At all. Even thus far only halfway into the series. He's mildly sadistic, and his murders are unnecessary....that's the only claim to fame he has, and even then several of the villains kill people without major provocation except greed, and when it comes to sadism and pain-inflicting, need I point you once more to the sick bastard who tries to cut a woman open while she's fully conscious to rip her baby out of her before threatening to shoot her through her belly and paint the walls with the baby inside her?

Nix is just not at all heinous enough IMO, and I think he's a cut. A very, very easy one.

Edited by Ravok on Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:27:48 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#210980: Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:25:03 AM

[tdown]Nix.

Why so serious?
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#210981: Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:32:30 AM

Cut Nix.

KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#210984: Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:45:57 AM

Cut Nix. Him being on the trope always rubbed me the wrong may and it didn't rub me the wrong way any less after checking the original EP, but I've never seen Justified myself.

Is that baby guy maybe worth an EP? 'Cause shit, quality over quantity sometimes.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#210985: Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:49:27 AM

Yeah, I say cut Nix, unless a pattern is confirmed. In a vacuum, I'd think he'd be fine, but Justified seems to have a fairly high standard.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#210986: Apr 23rd 2020 at 11:56:36 AM

I too am curious about that one shot baby-killer guy.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#210987: Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:04:08 PM

I'd hear that one out at least.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#210988: Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:05:48 PM

I'd say that as of now, Timmons could quite possibly count. His planned scheme of forcibly cutting a lady open to then sell her baby into human trafficking is extremely vicious even for the show, but that's—again—only thus far, halfway through the show. I'm watching through the series at a fairly solid pace, so unless Tyk wants to handle him, I can slap him on my "To-Do" list and get to him when I finish the series if I still think he's adequately heinous.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#210989: Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:14:54 PM

Cut Nix. Though I have never heard of this show strangely enough. Sounds up my alley though. Would you recommend it?

Edited by Bullman on Apr 23rd 2020 at 2:19:44 PM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#210990: Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:32:32 PM

@Ravok: ...Are you serious? I thought Timmons just had some kind of grudge against her and he was so desperate to get out of that hostage situation that he threatened the baby. I do not recall the whole human trafficking part. O__o

@Bullman: Oh hell yeah, Justified is a wonderful show. It's apparently a New Old West show...which is basically westerns for people of my/our generation. Plus it is nice that the show doesn't take place in Los Angeles, New York, insert-big-ass-city-name-here. It's another Police Procedural, but it has a unique style to it—something many police procedurals are lacking nowadays. Which is why a lot of 'em get cancelled.

As for handling Timmons in an EP...yeeeeaaaaaah, I got things and shiz to do, and shiz and things. Job, typing stories, proofreading stories—the absolute bane of my existence—editing TV Trope pages, Dark Souls, DOOM Eternal, Dark Souls II, Dark Souls III, watching the final season of Strike Back...oh right. And my fat-ass To-Do List. :D

Edited by Tyk5919 on Apr 23rd 2020 at 3:36:56 PM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#210991: Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:33:20 PM

I've liked the episodes I've seen but the only person I've really had a lengthy conversation about it with is Ambar and he used to go on about how much he hated the last season so I've always felt stuck with that statement.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#210992: Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:43:22 PM

@Bullman: Show is great so far, as 43 said I've heard iffy talk on if Seasons 5 and 6 are any good, but I've heard equal if not more accounts that they're plenty cool to watch, so it's definition got my recommendation for at least the first 3 seasons [lol]

@Tyk: Yeah it's never spelled out as "trafficking" but Timmons is hired to merely kill the pregnant gal...and then reveals he wants to cut her baby out first just so he can sell it on the black market, as there are people who will "pay thousands" for a "healthy white baby."

In the case that you don't seem to mind, I'll put Timmons on my To-Do and bring him out for an effortpost and full discussion when I finish the show.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
krimzonflygon2 Since: Jul, 2013
#210993: Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:49:14 PM

I am probably going to get laughed right off the thread for this, but reading over Warhammer 40K, I think we have a disqualification.

Namely, Fabius Bile.

No. Seriously. By our own criteria, I don't think the deranged Mad Doctor who wears labcoats of human skin and regularly does things so fucked up that Slaanesh winces at the thought of them is a Complete Monster by virtue of being a Well-Intentioned Extremist.

Me being relatively new to the fandom, I'm unsure of the canoncity of the following statements from him, and there's always the very likely possibility he's lying like a dog, but he presents himself as a Visionary Villain in the book Clonelord, who says the following in regards to making a better, stronger humanity to face the horrors of the galaxy:

Bile: The day will come, my dear, when your children's children stride the galactic rim as the kings and queens of all they survey. But first, you — we — must teach them how to survive, until that moment. In your generation, there were five hundred. Of them all, I kept only you and your closest siblings. The rest are scattered across the galaxy, burrowed into the flesh of a dying empire, so that they might best guide it to its well-deserved and long overdue grave. They, and their children, carry on my teachings into the dark. Generation upon generation, their strength breeding true. As mankind dies, so it nurtures its own replacement, all unknowing. But you are different. You and your kin are to be my hand on the throat of the future. For my brothers will not surrender to fate with dignity. Those who remain, after that final hour, will fight one another for the right to rule the ashes. And in that moment, you and yours shall assert yourselves, for the first time and the last. You will hunt angels, in the days to come, and make a new kingdom from their bones.

And later, when asked by one of his Gland-Hounds where he would be in this shining new future:

Bile: I imagine I will be first among the foundations, my dear. There will be no place for me in the paradise to come.

He enjoys what he does. He would never do otherwise. But he does what he does (apparently) for humanity's benefit. And if nothing else he seems to realize his actions are reprehensible, and that he deserves to burn for them while better men and women enjoy utopia. Not remorse, certainly, but it's better than, say, Vect who kills and tortures for nobody's benefit but his own and sees absolutely nothing wrong with doing so.

Assuming, of course, Bile's not just lying his ass off about all this.

So there you have it: an unironic suggestion that Fabius friggin' Bile doesn't count as a Complete Monster. 2020's somethin' else, am I right?

[down]God complex? He's got a huge ego, sure, but at the same time he, as I mentioned, seems to realize he's a monster.

Edited by krimzonflygon2 on Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:57:51 PM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#210994: Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:50:20 PM

I think we're fine on Bile.

The thing is...most of this is a reflection of Fabius's own twisted ego. He believes he should strengthen humanity, which is too tinged with sadism...but he's also shown on more than one occasion he's fine exterminating mankind and replacing them with beings of his own creation. I think it's too hard to read in good intent to that. He' got a bizarre mind to say the least, but his god-complex is a result of ego, not good intention

Furthermore, Games Workshop isn't always the best at consistent characterization.

Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:51:41 PM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#210995: Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:53:26 PM

@Ravok: Sure man, go for it. I get the feeling you'd end up finishing the rest of the show before I can get around to rewatching it all and judging the levels of the heinous standard.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#210996: Apr 23rd 2020 at 12:55:35 PM

I think fabius knows he's a monster, but he also believes only he gets to decide humanity's course. And if humanity won't conform to what he wants, he'll wipe them out and make a new, better race to face the galaxy.

It's hard for me to read any good intentions into him over this.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#210997: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:01:30 PM

I need something much more solid to consider cutting Bile. As Lighty mentioned he has a god complex and happily wipes out swathes of people to replace with his own creations and there are canon consistency issues. Even if it was the case that he was willing to die in place of a stronger people he had created, I’m much more inclined to hear that from the angle of his desire to be remembered forever through his atrocities and creations than anything benevolent. He wants his name to echo for eternity and so far everything he has done has been in line with that.

Fame Through Infamy: he’s quite happy being a known monster, as long as people are talking about him forever.

Edited by 43110 on Apr 23rd 2020 at 4:02:18 AM

krimzonflygon2 Since: Jul, 2013
#210998: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:03:42 PM

[up][up]True. But he's not the first to decide something like that. There was this one fascist dictator guy who banned all organized religion and executed regular purges of people who didn't comply, actively led campaigns to exterminate all other sentient races besides humans out of egotistical xenophobia (along with any human worlds that didn't want to play by his rules), saw his own children as disposable tools and regularly showed he didn't give a shit about their feelings...

Or does he not count?

Edited by krimzonflygon2 on Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:04:25 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#210999: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:05:06 PM

I'm not really sure why he'd be compared to the Emperor. The Emperor was, at his worst, well intentioned in truly caring for humanity's future, had loved ones....and, well...he was a moron how he went about doing things, but his 'death' came about because he truly loved his son Horus and couldn't bring himself to fight back until Horus proved he was beyond redemption.

But he has nothing to do with Fabius's qualifications. Heinousness is not a problem with Fabius, nor are the Emperor's good qualities or lack thereof relevant to fabius's own goals and deeds.

Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:08:50 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#211000: Apr 23rd 2020 at 1:06:24 PM

I've heard that the series makes him sympathetic at times, but I'm willing to just chalk that up to Depending on the Writer.

And before anyone asks, Horus doesn't count, but the man who corrupted him, Erebus, is already a CM.

Edited by ACW on Apr 23rd 2020 at 4:08:15 AM


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