During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Yes to Hawkins...and does it really matter on Chernabog? He's a big demon thing who gives us a visual spectacle. That's all he needs to be.
I do want to propose a new World of Darkness villain now from Kindred of the East
So, Kindred of the East is a spin off of Vampire the Masquerade...America and Europe are secretly ruled by the vampire clans, descendants of father Cain (as in 'And Abel')...organized in multiple clans. There's been a shadow war between the Camarilla and the Sabbat, tyranny against chaos...neither organization is close t good (the latter is at best A Lighter Shade of Black)...but I digress. the east is a forbidden land to vampires because it's (sigh) combined into just "ASIA" or 'The Middle Kingdom' because White Wolf couldn't be arsed to do much research...snark aside, vampires do exist there: the Kuei-Jin. Vampires in the east are spirits who died violently and managed to make it back to their bodies. They feed on chi, which can be obtained through blood or flesh, but eventually they learn to take it without that. The Kindred of the East seek enlightenment and have an evil to fight against: The Yama Kings, dark spirits who rule the Thousand Hells.
See, when the end comes? One of the Yama Kings is expected to rise and become the Demon Emperor, ushering in hell on earth and the beginning of the Sixth Age. It might not be preventable...but you can damn well try.
I'll be discussing the worst of the Yama Kings, in my eyes: Mikaboshi.
Who is Mikaboshi?
A Japanese scholar who arrived upon China's shores to become an adviser at court....but within him was a lust for power and cruelty. He turned to dark magic until he was uncovered and fled to hell itself to escape....using the corrupt chi and souls of others, Mikaboshi became stronger and stronger until he became as a demon himself...a Yama King, one of the strongest, and the ruler of the Wicked City....and he began to hunger for the day he would rise to the throne of Demon Emperor and reign over hell on earth.
Now, the Wicked City is known for its...technological innovation. Unlike other Yama Kings, Mikaboshi welcomes innovation. It's a dark place that's a twisted, corrupted metropolis. Every virtue and precept of Feng Shui are violated within the Wicked City and countless souls are corrupted there to be called in, trapped and twisted so their chi fuels Mikaboshi's power. The more souls a Yama King reaps, the more powerful they become, the better the chance they have to become Demon Emperor. So, then we get to the end Times, where Time of Judgement gives him his own scenario in "Wicked City"
Now, the less evil thing he does, with his chief Yama King rival is invent The Screaming Plague where a rogue Tremere vampire (a clan focusing on black magic) infect the Kuei-Jin with a dark plague to send their souls screaming down to hell...in a near genocide of the Keui-Jin. Bad enough? Wicked City?
Mikaboshi uses what's called the 'Broken Mirrors,' extending the Wicked City into every majormetropolis, and begins to corrupt them...reaping souls, but twisting others, perverting them from within. People become...violent, with rapine, murder, rioting, etc becoming common. Mikaboshi then also helps to influence a group of special forces to rise as monster hunters to put down the other supernatural...but has them as corrupt and violent, torturing and killing loads of innocents. After corrupting all of the lands he can? Mikaboshi has reaped enough souls to rise as Demon Emperor and force the fealty of the other Yama Kings...this will mean hell on earth. Demons, monsters, etc. descend on the world, slaughtering humanity as Mikaboshi reigns over the twisted hellscale. This has a few ending:
First off? Die fighting. You may not be able to stop the Sixth Age, but you can go out with a bang. Take a stand against Mikaboshi and go down swinging, battling the inevitable to the last.
Second? You can't stop it...but you can resist. The Sixth Age will end...you can form a rebellion and strike back against the dark lord in the confines of his own metropolis...whole new storytelling opportunities open here.
Third: Mikaboshi is planning an ascension and there's little time. You can put together a team now, when there's still time: strike and assassinate him. Stop the demon emperor...but the world may be torn apart by the infighting by the others.
Fourth: Mikaboshi has won. He is throwing a ceremony of ascension and plots to force his chief rival Tou Mu to be his empress among the Yama Kings...you have one change: utilizing a nuclear weapon, you must get to the ceremony and battle Mikaboshi...it may take a self sacrifice...but detonate the bomb and wipe out the blackhearted bastard and all the Yama Kings at once so the world may yet heal...
The choice is yours...
Is he heinous enough?
Mikaboshi is a relative upstart of the Yama Kings, but he's one of the most darkly succesful. He's reaped many, many souls, is responsible for the Screaming Plague in one scenario and in another? It's all about his rise, so he gets many chances to cut above the rest with his unique form of corruption and mass murder. Now, soul corruption and becoming Demon Emperor is what Yama Kings do, but Mikaboshi has his rimes much more detailed, with a healthy dose of guile and cruelty to him there. He's considerably worst than most other Yama Kings at least.
Mitigating Qualities?
Most Yama Kings lack agency or have seriously mitigating factors. Mikaboshi? Was human once, who became a Yama King and never looked back. He cares for nothing but power and domination, and forcing tou Mu to be his queen is only a way to twist the knife and establish dominance.
Conclusion?
I'd say a yes to him.
Question, does a Game Mod have to meet the heinous standard of the base game, or can it stand on its own? I'm asking because I'm going crazy waiting for the standalone remake of The Forgotten City, so I want to take another look at the original Skyrim mod.
Edited by DelphineTheDelphox on Apr 20th 2020 at 3:56:04 AM
RIP KissAnime.@ Delphine: I'd say go for it then
I'll have one or two others, but here's one more from the Old World of Darkness: Zhyzhak
What's the work?
'Werewolf: The Apocalypse is a twin to Vampire: The Masquerade. The werewolves are rather more...heroic than the vampires. The Garou Nation are fighting against the insane spirit of entropy, the Wyrm, a being that seeks to annihilate all that lives....but the apocalypse is inevitable, wars between the clans are common, and the Wyrm will have its day. Enter Zhyzhak, the Black Spiral Dancer.
Who is Zhyzhak?
A towering, terrifying woman clad in leather dominatrix gear with a whip and black heels (someone has a fetish at White Wolf), Zhyzhak broke her mother's pelvis at birth. Zhyzhak grew into a savage beast with a lust for killing, becoming the champion of the Wyrm's war aspect, the Green Dragon.. The Black Spiral Dancers are Garou who turn to the Wyrm, named for the savage war dance, where they take their name: Zhyzhak is more "Sha-shak," like a snapping of jaws. As the head of them? Zhyzhak leads her forces against the Garou and she kills, spreading the corrupting influence of the Wyrmto bring the apocalypse. There is no subtlety to her: she simply kills. She has killed entire packs, all but annihilated clans and slaughters the warriors of the final Garou king, Albrecht...with the prophecy that she is fated to kill him in battle. Her body count is absolutely fucking enormous and she often sends the corpses of her victims, with words of dark prophecy carved into their flesh.
Enter Time of Judgement. Zhyzhak delivers a message to the world itself: attacking Temple Corner, Maine...Zhyzhak leads the Black Spiral Dancers after sealing the town and every single one of the 700 innocent lives within is tortured and slaughtered. Using herself to lure in the Garou, Zhyzhak ambushes them and kills the remaining people of the town where Zhyzhak had piled her victims by the church...and Albrecht, last king of the Garou makes his stands, even as Zhyzhak rends him open....the last king meets his end, but not before he hurls himself and Zhyzhak off the roof, using the last of his strength to drown her in the blood of her victims. And so passes Albrecht and Zhyzhak, with the world left to see how the Apocalypse shall occur...
The other scenarios follow much the same. Albrecht and Zhyzhak will almost assuredly die at one another's hands.
Heinousness and Mitigating Qualities?
Nothing good is ever ascribed Zhyzhak. She is a beast, a savage, baneful monster who lives to kill. She doesn't care much for torture in lieu of savagely murdering the fuck out of everything she finds. she's killed many, many werewolves, wiped out tribes and clans, slaughtered warriors and civilians alike. She cares nothing for her fellow wolves; you kill or be killed, and what she does in Temple Hills is the single worst deed I know of in Werewolf.
Now, there's the Wyrm, which is an apocalyptic monstrosity...however, the Wyrm is kind of a Jerkass Woobie in a way. It's a being caught in the thread of creation and just wants to escape, not really....having the conception that this is 'wrong' for everything else. It's been corrupted to boot, but Zhyzhak? She just lives to fight, kill and wants to end the world. As the book puts it?
"She has been promised the honor of breaking the world open to watch it bleed in the Final Days, and nothing the weak, puny Gaians have to offer will stop her from living out that delicious destiny."
Conclusion?
An easy yes to Zhyzhak
Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 20th 2020 at 4:14:36 AM
'Yes' to Hawkin, Mikaboshi, and Zhyzhak (think I spelled that right...)
Alright, this is something I really never thought I'd be doing, but...due to both my own re-watching of the series to handle Myglom and to rewrite Atrocitus at ACW's requests? Yeah, I unfortunately think that Atrocitus needs to be cut.
Here's his entry, for reference:
- Green Lantern: The Animated Series: Atrocitus, the Big Bad of the first arc, is the leader of the Red Lantern Corps and lacks any of his comic book self's more redeeming qualities. While he lost his homeworld to the Manhunters, his obsession with destroying the Guardians of the Universe destroyed any noble intentions he may have had. Starting the Red Lantern Corps, Atrocitus caused many worlds to be caught in war, resulting in millions of lives needlessly lost, in order to find new recruits. Seeing Razer's potential being blocked by the love for his wife, Illana, Atrocitus murders her, a fact he eventually reveals this with sadistic glee. Under his orders, the Red Lanterns lure several Frontier Lanterns into traps where they are murdered. When Hal Jordan and Kilowog escape with Frontier Lantern Shyir Rev to his homeworld, Atrocitus proclaims to the inhabitants they are "under the Red Lanterns' protection", which involves handing the Green Lanterns over or he will set off a bomb that will destroy the planet. When they fight back, he allows the detonation to occur, though the people are saved, Shyir Rev sacrifices himself. Attempting to reach Oa to kill the Guardians, he hires Drusa to take control of Aya and board the Intercerptor, he critically injures Salaak and brutalizes Hal before being overpowered and defeated. He makes his return in "Love Is a Battlefield", where he's given a chance at freedom if he can defeat and kill Carol Ferris, agreeing when he learns she's the woman Hal loves. Hal intervenes, though Atrocitus indirectly murders the Star Sapphire Ghia'ta, promising Hal that Carol will be next. Referred to by Aya as the "champion of hate", Atrocitus demonstrates how rage and obsession makes one worse than those they fight.
Mkay, so, it's easy to gather that Atrocitus is a sadistic warlord with genocide, mass murder, and petty cruelty on his hands. He's vindictive, he's gleefully brutal, and he's a horrible person...the issue with Atrocitus is that he has a completely legitimate Freudian Excuse that has too long been downplayed.
Atrocitus's entire planet was wiped out by Manhunters created by the Guardians of Oa, and though details of the massacre are sketchy and not entirely the Guardians' faults, the Guardians outright admit that it happened, Atrocitus has intense facial scarring from the event, and...no matter what evil he gets up to in the series? It's based around paying the Guardians and, by extension, Green Lanterns back for what they did to his people.
Nothing ever once implies the event didn't happen, and Atrocitus's goal? It isn't to rule the universe, it isn't to kill everything, it's...to kill the Guardians as payback for what happened to his people.
Hell, Hal Jordan, the titular Green Lantern himself, flat out says that Atrocitus is completely right to be angry and desire revenge. A massive portion of season 1 is spent on Hal realizing that the Guardians are not flawless, and that Atrocitus has a completely valid reason to want them dead. When Hal begs Atrocitus to agree to a truce and make peace, offering to help the man with his trauma? Atrocitus seems to genuinely be listening....only to then say with genuine outrage "Help? You can help...your dying screams will soothe the restless souls of OUR DEAD!" before trying to kill him in a fury.
Atrocitus is a hypocrite, don't get me wrong. He arranges for several people, such as Razer, to experience the exact same trauma he himself went through to recruit them. He wipes out their worlds, frames the Guardians for it, and uses them as recruits to help his "righteous" cause. This is vile and, again, hypocritical as hell, but it doesn't change the inherent issue: Atrocitus's goal is revenge for his world's genocide.
A villain can kick puppies and commit genocide all he wants, but when his final, true goal is a blind vengeance against the people who he blames for killing his world, and he consistently focuses solely on revenge and how it's "justice" to slay them? Any "means" he goes through doesn't really matter, seeing as his "ends" is flat-out hatred and rage at his planet's death. Atrocitus may be a sadist who commits crimes with glee, but it's all in service of something that genuinely affects and pisses him off, which is his planet's genocide.
Now, Kylotroper brought Atrocitus up as a possible cut a year or so back and several people—admittedly, myself included—shot it down, but...actually refreshing myself on the series, Atrocitus's backstory has been brushed off as Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse which is flatout wrong, and saying "well, yeah, but he's a hypocrite who puts others through the same events he went through" really doesn't mean shit. Criminal Minds has tons of abusers and serial killers who repeat trauma they've gone through onto victims. That doesn't make them absolved of their own excuses and traumatic backstory, it just further shows how far gone they are.
If Atrocitus's backstory was one-off mentioned? Ok. If he had a goal that was based around power or selfish reasons? Sure, Keep him. But seeing as his backstory is brought up a lot by both himself, other Red Lanterns, and the Guardians, his goal is revenge against the Guardians for a completely understandable reason, and Hal blatantly says "You're right, you have every justification to be angry and want the Guardians dead," it's all way too much for me to just say "He's a hypocrite, Keep him."
Hilariously, that mindset is exactly what one of the Guardians accuse Atrocitus of: overplaying his backstory and using it as propaganda to amass an army...only for said Guardian to be revealed as a complete asshole who is deliberately covering up the Manhunter massacre so as to avoid Atrocitus from getting sympathy for his cause.
Edited by Ravok on Apr 20th 2020 at 4:25:20 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!Yes to Mikaboshi and Zhy, and yes to Hugh. Unfortunately I'll say no to Atrocitus. Got another Mythos candidate to follow that up, from the compilation Shadows over Main Street. This one is from The Abomination of Fensmere by Lucy A. Snyder, and our candidate is Morinda Haughton.
Who is Morinda? What has she done?
Our young protagonist Penny is brought to an ornate manor owned by her wealthy relatives the Haughtons whom have taken interest in her. Her aunt Morinda is acting head of the family in lieu of her brother, Reverend of the local church, being bedridden with a terrible sleeping sickness. Morinda seems pleasant, though she speaks of Penny's Jewish father in disgust, and she's especially contemptuous of the family's black servants...of which there seem to be disproportionately many of...
Morinda, as it turns out, is a Klanswoman! Penny casually finds out that the cast one of the servant children wears is because Morinda broke the kid's arm in a moment of rage, and that Morinda and her family keep their black slaves in line by threatening to come down on the local colored community Buckton. It doesn't matter—Morinda and the Klan's plans are borderline apocalyptic. Morinda's own brother, the Reverend of the Klan, has been enslaved by an eldritch horror Morinda placed on him. All this is for the purpose of claiming Penny and using her as a human sacrifice to call upon otherworldly powers, first to annihilate Bucktown and then to clean the world of everyone who isn't Klan-level white. Fortunately, the elder gods reject Penny's sacrifice and she turns those powers on the Klan instead, burning them all including Morinda.
Any mitigating factors?
Klanswoman who attempts to feed all the minorities of the world to Yog-Sothoth. Uh, no.
Conclusion?
Keeper.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 20th 2020 at 5:27:08 AM

One of my favorite species from the Mythos, actually.