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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#20901: Jan 13th 2014 at 9:40:34 PM

Koreans do seem to love their over-the-top villains judging by all the Korean films we've seen pass through here.

Maybe because they live next door to one in Real Life? *rimshot*

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#20902: Jan 13th 2014 at 9:43:41 PM

Oh, my mistake...Jang Pil-Ho is from The City Of Violence

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#20903: Jan 13th 2014 at 10:42:00 PM

Hommer Simpson

  • William, who kills the Old Simpson and punches a pregnant Marge in stomach, thus aborting her baby.

Given this is a Simpsons fan work, I doubt this is played seriously.

Harry Potter and the Nightmares of Futures Past

  • As opposed to Dumbledore, Snape is treated without the faintest trace of sympathy and frequently uses his Legilimency to Mind Rape Harry (or try to) and the other characters. It's implied that Snape might have used his Legilimency to implant self-destructive impulses (namely Harry's "saving people thing") in the original timeline.

Most of this sounds like Offscreen Villainy.

sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#20904: Jan 14th 2014 at 12:38:10 AM

Poor writing aside, the entry does nothing to suggest that William did anything heinous according to the surreal Black Comedy standards found in Hommer Simpson. The fan-fic series also never takes its own events seriously. Sorry, but it's a [tdown].

And seriously, Snape might have not been the nicest professor to Harry, but what is up with all these fan-fics that demonize him? Even without my personal bias from reading all the books and watching all of the film adaptations, the crimes committed by this version of Snape are Offscreen Villainy. [tdown]

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#20905: Jan 14th 2014 at 1:37:18 AM

Should we just cut all of Grand Theft Auto? Also, what was the final verdict on Ultimate Reed Richards?

Irene (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#20906: Jan 14th 2014 at 5:47:17 AM

It's a bit late, but I finally cut Doubletone from the Power Rangers Samurai page. Nobody got to doing that, despite multiple times(as a search showed) that it was heavily agreed upon that he just isn't heinous. He's a bit of a dick towards a kid... lying to them about their parent. That's... it. Literally. He did fit under You Monster trope-wise.

  • Doubletone, Monster of the Week from episode "Deal With a Nightlok" is seen as this by Kevin and Mia because he tricked Ryan into giving up baseball by lying that if he did so his father would return from the army. He seemed to enjoy Ryan's suffering

Any honest objections? I really really doubt there would be, and it's been discussed many times, but due to the fact it never got removed, I'd like an actual consensus on it.

edited 14th Jan '14 5:53:17 AM by Irene

Shadow?
AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#20907: Jan 14th 2014 at 6:47:31 AM

As for H₂O: Footprints in the Sand, while it was years since I saw the anime, I don't remember him being a Complete Monster as much as someone bent on following some ideal of honour/tradition no matter what it costs a few others. Basically justified in his mind by being for the better of society or honour or something like that. As the entry itself said, it was about his family.

Check out my fanfiction!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#20908: Jan 14th 2014 at 8:47:05 AM

For GTA, we should keep Andrew Love and only Love. Someone please cut The Dark Dragon, and should Lotso from Toy Story have a rewrite? Keep Doubletone cut and cut the H20 one are my votes

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#20909: Jan 14th 2014 at 9:11:17 AM

Could someone (Lighty?) please do a rewrite for Love (and speaking of rewrites, if Majora qualifies, he could probably use a rewrite as well)?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#20910: Jan 14th 2014 at 9:40:39 AM

For Lotso, there was YMMV.Toy Story 3, there was this rewrite that could probably be used as a replacement for the one on the Disney page, and as for Majora, I had already proposed a rewrite for it. You helped me to rewrite it, ACW.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#20912: Jan 14th 2014 at 9:49:14 AM

I recall that of us who claim that he fails to pass the necessary general level of heinousness got outvoted. I could be wrong, though.

edited 14th Jan '14 9:49:30 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#20913: Jan 14th 2014 at 9:54:14 AM

[up][up][up]Oh, right. BTW, as for Lotso, DEFINITELY [tup] (in case we need to vote again).

edited 14th Jan '14 9:54:22 AM by ACW

ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#20914: Jan 14th 2014 at 10:07:32 AM

Lotso was the only Pixar villain whose majority vote was [tup].

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#20915: Jan 14th 2014 at 10:07:57 AM

Yeah, a definite [tup] for Lotso. He's an example of a Complete Monster that has a very poor excuse for being evil. The writers never intended him to be seen as sympatheic, and only focused on his evil ways.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#20916: Jan 14th 2014 at 10:08:15 AM

Lotso was voted to keep. Definitively.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ANewMan A total has-been. Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A total has-been.
#20917: Jan 14th 2014 at 10:12:08 AM

Plus, all the other Toy Story "bad guys" (Sid, Scud, Al, Stinky Pete, Emperor Zurg, Lotso's minions) were barely even evil, so Lotso very clearly blows them out of the water in terms of heinousness. His crimes include emotional manipulation (of Big Baby), betrayal of his former friend (Chuckles, whom he threw to the Caterpillar Room before Bonnie took him home after he got broken), general tyranny by rigging the system for toys at Sunnyside, Mind Rape (on Buzz), torture, assault (Big Baby again) and attempted murder (via abandonment at incinerator). And yes, the movie makes it clear that his Freudian Excuse means nothing to him as he is in the present day.

Also, I lean towards [tup] for Mechakara due not only to his exploits in AT 4 W, but in To Boldly Flee as well (Linkara himself was reportedly very uncomfortable with the scene where he almost literally Mind Rapes Nostalgia Chick with a power drill), and quite frankly, I don't think "he comes off as Narm" is a good reason for cutting. But if Malachite from Suburban Knights is still there, then I'd [tdown] him. His ultimate fate is having to work at a coffee shop. I really think that shows that he ultimately wasn't that heinous by TGWTG standards if they could still make a big joke out of him.

edited 14th Jan '14 10:16:32 AM by ANewMan

sanfranman91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#20918: Jan 14th 2014 at 10:34:15 AM

[up] Agreed 110%. Don't know why we're voting again, since Lotso's clearly a [tup].

I'm on the fence about Mechakara in the AT 4 W series, but his actions To Boldly Flee suggest he could qualify. A cautious [tup], though I could see it going the other way since AT 4 W is an otherwise comical Caustic Critic series.

edited 14th Jan '14 10:34:27 AM by sanfranman91

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#20919: Jan 14th 2014 at 11:05:26 AM

Sid is probably the closest to Lotso...but this is mitigated by him not knowing the toys were alive (otherwise I'd lean toward including him as well).

toonyloon Since: Jul, 2011
#20920: Jan 14th 2014 at 11:52:55 AM

I say KEEP Lotso, and I also believe his writeup on Monster.Disney should be replaced with the one on Toy Story 3's YMMV page.

toonyloon Since: Jul, 2011
#20921: Jan 14th 2014 at 12:38:18 PM

BTW, here's my evaluation on Lotso.

Who is Lotso?

Lotso is a toy bear who runs/dictates Sunnyside Daycare. He was once owned by a girl named Daisy, along with two other toys named Big Baby and Chuckles, but after she lost them, Lotso, Big Baby, and Chuckles became homeless and eventually found Sunnyside.

What has he done?

After he found Sunnyside, Lotso, in the words of Chuckles, "rigged the whole system." He rules the daycare with an iron fist and forces new toys to be put in the Caterpillar room to be abused by little kids. He also puts said toys in cages, and any toy that tries to escape will be caught and most likely put in "the box." Finally, in the film's climax at the garbage dump, after Woody and Buzz save his life, he manages to escape and leaves Woody, Buzz, and the other toys to burn in the incinerator, doing so with a sadistic smile and a mocking salute.

Is he heinous by the standards of the story?

Definitely, not only when compared to the other Toy Story villains, but compared to other Pixar villains as well (only Hopper and Syndrome come close in my book).

Is his terribleness played seriously at all time?

Yes, he is always played seriously.

Any redeeming qualities?

Not from what I saw. He hates any toy that steps out of line, and it's shown that he clearly doesn't care about Big Baby or Chuckles (once Big Baby started to miss Daisy, Lotso gave him a verbal beatdown).

Any Freudian Excuse?

Well, he does have a backstory, but it comes nowhere close to justifying any of his later actions. There's even a scene where Woody calls him out on it.

Lotso (on Daisy): She replaced us!

Woody: She replaced you, and if you couldn't have her than no one could. You lied to Big Baby, and you've been lying ever since.

Conclusion:

I say Lotso qualifies. Keep.

edited 14th Jan '14 4:28:10 PM by toonyloon

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#20922: Jan 14th 2014 at 12:44:02 PM

Guys, we voted him keep long ago. We just need to decide if he needs a new writeup.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#20923: Jan 14th 2014 at 12:54:48 PM

Aaargh, from Revengeance's YMMV: The unnamed scientist working for Desperado counts when you consider that, when faced with the possibility that he may have to kill many homeless children he places greater concern over losing profits over killing dozens of kids.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#20924: Jan 14th 2014 at 12:58:11 PM

Like I said before, I wish we could label companies as Complete Monsters because everyone in Desperado Enforcement deserve it.

Still though, I wouldn't doubt that unnamed scientist is a monster but I don't think we know enough about him to put him in

Oh really when?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010

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