During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I put each work's Monsters in the work's own folder; ditto for Metal Gear and Ace Attorney.
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That's what I thought, but the entry claims she's worse than Lotten. And I can't place why that might be other than the fact that a woman who uses seduction to betray and enslave others is worth being reviled more than the head honcho. Is there something I'm missing, or should this entry get cut?
edited 13th Jan '14 11:22:31 AM by ANewMan
Sorry, I always meant to get rid of Lowe (due to having impaired moral agency because of his insanity, a fucked up Freudian Excuse, and loving his mother). There were enough votes for his removal last time I brought him up. I'll put in a request to cut him tonight.
As for Bulgarin, I've said it before but I really, really don't think Bulgarin counts. He does remarkably little onscreen with the the only innocent victims of his being the owner of a hockey team, and his staff, who refused to sell his team to Bulgarin, and possibly kill his sister when he shot at her in a rage. The protagonists hurt more people than him. Other than that all his victims are other criminals. He tries to kill the protagonists, kills off a team of Dirty Cops, and shows off the head of the man who stole from him. All of his human trafficking, the one crime that could maybe make him heinous enough to qualify, is all offscreen. As it is, he's nowhere near heinous enough to count in the series. Trevor is the only one anywhere near heinous enough to count in the new series, and he obviously doesn't because of his Pet the Dog moments. The only example I can see counting at all from the series is Love because of his blowing up an entire populated city district.
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Those are what we call misogyny entries. When it looks like a female is only called a Complete Monster because of something relating to being female as opposed to any real crimes. They get cut if we determine that to be the case.
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I knew it was one of those. I mean, what it says:
"Barb was just as bad, and in many ways, even worse, seeing as she used seduction and deceit" THE HORROR! A woman who uses seduction and her feminine wiles to commit evil! Just like several examples of The Vamp!
"(and it was hinted, sexual favors in Malcolm's case)" Doesn't the use of "hinted" indicate Offscreen Villainy?
"After even Yusei fell for it, she offered to spare him from the mines if he was willing to become her personal slave" Offering to spare him is almost a Pet the Dog moment where it not for the rape-y condition of the deal.
"his rather blunt refusal caused her to strike him." Wow, I thought Divine and Lotton were bad, but striking the main character? That REALLY goes beyond the pale!
"Ironically, even though Barb never dueled once in the story (whether she even did that or not isn't known)" What does that even have to do with anything? There have been plenty of villains who aren't duelists! Does playing a children's card game reflect heinousness?
"she remains one of the most reviled villains in the franchise among fans." Among the fans. I don't feel I need to say what's wrong about that.
I should also bring up that the character appears in two video games, where she's not as bad and gets a much lighter punishment.
So yeah,
for Barb.
edited 13th Jan '14 2:28:06 PM by ANewMan
- Complete Monster: Hinata's grandfater. He's really just an old man who wants to control the village he presides over as the elder, and seems to care solely for the preservation of the Kagura family. To the point of forcing his granddaughter to falsify her identity, and trying to kill a middle-school-age girl. Sure, the girl's parents were Bad Samaritans, but that alone doesn't justify the brutality given to Hayami.
Anything else that he does? Also that last part is confusing.
Cut the darkfic example. And to quote Lighty, what the hell?
Also, the Disney page has an entry I don't think we've looked at: The Phantom of The Phantom Manor, which is Disneyland Paris's Darker and Edgier version of The Haunted Mansion.
Maybe it's just me, but I kinda question how heinous a villain of an amusement park ride could be. Now granted, the Haunted Mansion rides have various accompanying stories and the Phantom Manor has an official backstory. But would that be enough for the Phantom to possibly be a CM?
edited 13th Jan '14 6:27:42 PM by TVRulezAgain
I agree that the Phantom guy probably isn't a Complete Monster, all he's listed for is a single murder (although it was by hanging) so it's an easy cut. Also I noticed that the Dark Dragon is still on that Disney page. He seriously fails the heinous standard (worst thing he does onscreen is try to kill the heroes) compared to The Huntsman and he's a Generic Doomsday Villain anyway.
Also we should keep our eye on Lord Vyce (Atop The Fourth Wall). His good intentions are just there as an excuse (he's really doing it for his ego), he's done lots of bad things, and has returned.
Mechakara is the only one I'd say counts. He's actually not Played for Laughs: if ever he's in funny moments, he's The Comically Serious. With Lord Vyce, I just have a hard time seeing him as anything other than a self-deluded Knight Templar at most, and he's not as heinous as Mechakara.
edited 13th Jan '14 8:09:51 PM by ANewMan
I just have a really hard time picturing Vyce counting after all the good he's done. Granted saving the universes he conquered may have been done partly out of ego... But he still saved multiple universes from being destroyed by an Eldritch Abomination. Done for reasons of ego or not, those are some pretty damn good deeds he's done. Of course I haven't watched ATFW in a while, currently going through a vid binge, but unless Vyce has begun destroying those universes he's saved, I can't imagine his net evil deeds ever getting out of the red.
edited 13th Jan '14 8:41:46 PM by OccasionalExister
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Given that his archnemesis is a comic book reviewer in a silly hat I'd say that Mechakara is indeed played for laughs. He himself may not be funny, but the entire concept is so ridiculous that it can't be taken seriously.
Hell, I'm just going to say it—anybody from TGWTG? I'm saying no. Consider this a cut vote on any villain who originates on that website. If the various Abridged series can't have a CM, than TGWTG certainly can't.
His acting and effects are awful but Linkara tries to have serious storylines at least
I would like to propose a few other movie examples. I'll keep it concise:
Continuing my Korean film kick, Cho Kyu-Hwan from the film The Public Enemy...Kyu-Hwan is a seemingly ordinary and successful young man, but he's also a psychotic murderer who remorselessly murders people for real, real petty slights (his Establishing Character Moment is beating a guy to death for a rather innocuous reason from work). He then learns his parents aren't going to leave him a huge inheritance. His totally sane and not at all over the top reaction to this is to stab them to death and dispose of their bodies while inserting himself into their will. He then tries to kill the hero, a cop who sees him disposing of the bodies. He later murders a guy to cover for him and draw suspicion away by faking the same MO he used with his parents.
The second is Jang Pil-Ho, the former friend of the heroes when they were kids. In the present though, Jang has become a mobster and wants to buy all the real estate he can and develop it. He murders one of his old friends when he objects, despite the guy being the husband of Jang's sister. He threatens and tortures land owners until they sell to him and when another of their four man band tries to talk sense into Jang, Jang has him beaten to a pulp by his men and only spares him because he's so far below Jang as to be not even worth it, and mocks him about how that's strength. When the man Jang got to kill his brother in law looks like he might talk, Jang has him doused in gas and burned alive.
He later kills a Seoul President at his restaurant and orders his last two friends killed when they come to stop him. He shows constantly that he cares nothing for any of them.
Finally is the sadistic pimp Ramrod from the 1982 film Vice Squad. We meet Ramrod when he ambushes a prostitute who tried to leave him. He ties her to the bed and then beats her with his pimp stick (I didn't make the term up, ok) so badly she dies in the hospital. Ramrod is arrested thanks to the help of a friend of the girl he killed. When he escapes the cops, he begins hunting down the prostitute who helped the cops. He interrogates and murders several prostitutes who're friends with his target. He also interrogates another pimp and castrates him for no real reason when the guy gives him an answer he doesn't want.
When he catches his target, he proceeds to torture her and begins to beat her with his pimpstick until the Cowboy Cop hero intervenes and kill him.
So yeah, I think they're all nice keepers. Especially Ramrod
edited 13th Jan '14 9:14:40 PM by Lightysnake
While I actually enjoy ATFW, I would contend that whatever Linkara is going for, the end result is ridiculous. It's impossible to take the storylines seriously, and since we don't take authorial intent into account, I'd say cut.
In the case of the Korean film, the second guy actually sounds much worse than the first guy. Not really seeing a problem with Ramrod, though god the name...would I be wrong to think this is an exploitation flick?
Well, thankfully, Cho and Jang are from different films so we don't have any heinousness issues. I actually hated Cho more than Jang, but that's me.
You'd be wrong on the latter, though. It's more a Cowboy Cop action film. Most of the violence is even Gory Discretion Shot.
