During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
ACW would you believe he’s also very much an All-Loving Hero?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Have a new one from Call of Cthulhu, namely from the Arkham supplement...from the Lovecraftian canon? Keziah Mason.
Who is Keziah Mason?
An old, evil witch who dwells in the town of Arkham, Keziah is much the same as her Dreams in the Witch House counterpart. A devotee of Nyarlathotep and one of his most powerful servitors, Keziah is known for one thing: child sacrifice. To appease the Outer Gods and open up pathways to her own knowledge, Keziah takes and sacrifices countless children, babies and others, filling up parts of the Witch House with huge amounts of bones, presided over by her follower Brown Jenkin. The Dreams in the Witch House scenario plays out much the same, but Arkham proper?
Keziah is delved into more, and it's revealed she runs a sect known as the Evil Cult. Dedicated to worshiping the Old Ones and Outer Gods, the Evil Cult brings disasters and madness to others for rituals, for their own knowledge or their own enjoyment. Each meeting of the group is capped by child sacrifice as mandated by Keziah. Every single holy day? Child sacrifice. Every special occasion? Child sacrifice. Keziah turns the act of murdering kids into a bloody industry, and any member of the cult who proves insufficiently loyal or fails is disposed of by Keziah in a ghastly matter.
Now, the player can provoke the wrath of the Evil Cult and Keziah herself, and end up destroying them, but canonically, Keziah's end seems to come the same way: Luring the hero of the Witch House adventure within, while attempting to kidnap and murder a baby, Keziah is ultimately outplayed and undon, killed in the midst of a ritual to summon or contact Nyarlathotep.
Heinousness?
Keziah personifies Would Hurt a Child, with countless dead kids in a unique niche even in Chaosium's RPG. The game makes her far worse than her counterpart in the literary world, with how she industrializes it, practices more human sacrifice and goes over and above with other murders and disasters.
Mitigating Qualities?
None whatsoever. She cares nothing for her own cult whatsoever, and her only other goal in life is service to 'The Black Man' (Nyarlathotep) for the secrets of the universe.
Conclusion?
Keeper.
Also, have a cut we need:
From Heaven's Lost Property, we have Minos, the Master of Synapse.
" Complete Monster: Minos, the master of Synapse, refers to humans as "downers" and "bugs". He also beats Nymph whenever she fails her orders (or when he feels like it) and constantly threatens to destroy her. It's likely that he also treats the other angeloids that way, threatening destruction if they don't provide entertainment for him. This "entertainment" includes such things as ordering Ikaros to annihilate the Tower of Babylon and the surrounding city, which would kill countless people, and placing a bomb around Nymph's neck, triggered to explode if she again failed to bring Ikaros back to Synapse. The worst personal and petty thing he did was probably the time he ordered Nymph to call on her pet bird and prove her loyalty to him by crushing it to death. After she did so, he stomped her face into the ground while laughing about how "That was pretty fun. I'll save scrapping you until next time." Nymph goes on to thank him for not destroying her, which in all those cases, can easily be interpreted as "Thank you for not destroying me today." He does all this while smiling evilly the entire time, and does these sorts of things after the series fully establishes that the angeloids have feelings and emotions despite their artificial natures. Both of the angeloids in question cry their hearts out after recalling what they were ordered to do. The sections that have him in it are when the plot shows its dark and serious side."
All this is true, but he proves to care for his cohorts. When his harpy duo end up dying for his sake, he is touched by their loyalty and collapses in remorse, and evolves to the point where he ends up regretting his cruelty. During the reset of the world, he has a breakdown and is last seen with the harpies comforting him.
Total bastar,d but not a CM
Yes to Keziah.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sounds like a cut.
Edited by falcontalons on Mar 30th 2020 at 7:57:19 AM
Goku Black
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Keziah
Huh curious where did that come from. Did we just miss that.
Yeah to Keziah, cut Minos in that case and ACW if Ravok is cool with it wanna tag a rewrite for the Colorless King on his pending? The one I did admittedly has some issues—wasting time detailing who people are, misnaming "Scepter 4", not mentioning that the super-powered gang war he triggers at the end takes place on an island filled with high school students, risking the Red King's sword causing untold damage for a chance to power grab him while he's unstable—I think it could be done better. If Ravok's not down I can but given he convinced me on this one and I know he loves the villain too I think he gets first dibs to word it the way he wants.
I mean, it's an entry from a manga not everyone has read, just extrapolate that nobody was around to update us
Ultimate Moral Compass
Keziah, Cut Minos
Goku Black
Oh cut Minos then
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Showtime!
"Cool. Coolcoolcool."
Yes to Keziah. Cut Minos.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
The Draftsman of Doom
Mason.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Fair enough. Would Wicked Pretentious work better?
Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 30th 2020 at 11:15:29 AM
Feels good, don't it?
The wifi here sucks
Rich Bitch doesn't really fit Athena's character to me.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Ah, if the King needs a rewrite, then sure. Done.
Cut Minos.
Sure to the images. Comic Book folder? Probably, since we have Film!Yellow Bastard under film, even though the entry's under Comics.
Yes to Keziah. Just put her before Pierce?
Also, "she runs a sect known as the Evil Cult"...she may be evil, but she's not that creative ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Yes, it's very self explanatory, isn't it?
Appreciate the honesty, right?
The MILF Virus
Keziah
True I believe Minos should be cut... but what about his anime version? It's pretty much the same except the anime never went as far to show his redeeming qualities and his worse crimes like ordering Lilith to kill her pet bird is still around. I also think it was slightly different from the original, not sure on that.
"Are you the devil?" "Don't compare to me to those small fry" - Mir
The Draftsman of Doom
This candidate literally has my name on it (and maybe future's as well).
What is the work?
The Suppressor is a British 2011 neo noir film.
After Blake Bradley loses his wife in a home invasion, he lets his anger build up until he witnesses a prostitute being abused, prompting him to intervene. A mysterious benefactor, claiming to be the prostitute's father, offers to fund Blake's vigilante work in exchange for taking down major drug dealers in Scotland; but Blake's benefactor (credited as Max Bentley) might not be what he seems.
Eventually, Blake discovers that Max is a drug dealer himself, known to the criminal underworld and police as "Vince the Prince".
Who is Max Bentley/"Vince the Price" and what has he done.
Max Bentley, otherwise known as "Vince the Prince", is a major Aberdeen drug dealer.
Max witnesses Blake Bradley defending a prostitute from a gang of thugs. Posing as the father of said prostitute, Max enlists Blake's help eliminating a number of drug dealers who happen to be rivals under the pretence of reducing crime, exploiting Blake's loss of his wife to drug addicts, as well as his desire for justice at all costs.
To this end, Max has one of his men supply Blake with weapons, while Max himself provides information on the targets themselves, only giving enough factual information to ensure the deaths of his rivals.
The targets include:
- Michael Forrester, his own subordinate, who deals drugs to children as young as eleven at Max's behest, but didn't pay his debt to Max. (Max claims that Michael works for rival Drug dealer Billy Hunter).
- Simon Smith, MP, a corrupt politician on the payroll of rival drug dealer Billy Hunter.
- Detective Cooper, a dirty cop, also on Billy Hunter's payroll.
- The workers at the farmhouse where Billy Hunter's drugs are processed.
- The men at Billy Hunter's Warehouse.
- Billy Hunter himself.
Once Max knows that Blake has finished eliminating the targets, he has his chauffeur gas Blake in the limousine provided, only for Blake to escape.
When Blake confronts Max for using him to eliminate his rivals, as well as selling drugs to children as young as eleven, Max posits that Blake has turned himself into a bloodthirsty serial killer. In response to Blake's threat to kill Max and finish what he started, Max reveals that he has abducted Blake's daughter Alana, and has his men lock her in a refrigerator in case anything happens to him. Fortunately for Alana, Blake shoots his way out, killing Max's men, freeing her, and eliminating Max with an M16 grenade attachment.
Heinousness?
Max is the nastiest of the dealers, and is responsible for the worst of the deeds in the film, albeit indirectly.
- While Billy Hunter is a vicious drug dealer who will attack anyone who wrongs him, he does not sell to children, and he doesn't attack anyone uninvolved in the criminal lifestyle.
- Simon Smith, MP, while corrupt, has nothing to do with violent crimes.
- Blake Bradley himself is a vicious vigilante with a large body count, but he only attacks people involved in the criminal lifestyle, would never hurt a child, and is uninvolved in the drug trade aside from being a pawn to Max.
Mitigating Factors?
Max and his men are not actually shown dealing drugs to kids, but the fact that Michael talks about it as "just business", coupled with the fact that we see his product, takes it out of offscreen villainy territory. Max's dead daughter story is a sham, and while he does point out that Blake is far from innocent, he did take advantage of a man's desire for vengeance in order to have someone unrelated to the criminal underworld commit murder.
Verdict?
It's a tough call, but I think that we may have a possible contender. At the very least, he is worthy of discussion.
Feels good, don't it?
No, Minos's anime counterpart is just from a cut short adaptation, not a different story. I'm not fond of cutting corners there. Cut in full.
I'm saying no to Max. Doesn't seem over the line or even that heinous in the work
No to Max.
Goku Black
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Max
Seems too focused on targeting other gangsters rather then innocents.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Showtime!
to Max
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Yeah, I'll slot Keziah at the beginning of the individual modules section.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Yes to the Colorless King.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread