During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to Duncan Taylor and Mueller.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Oh, and like I said, I support the Vicious expansion.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Another "Unsure but I risk nothing proposing them"
What’s the work?
Basically, Lucifer decides to leaves hell and opens a club in Los Angeles. He then meets police offer Chloe Decker and they team up to solve cases.
Who is he?
Julian McCaffrey from the episode "Orgy Pants To Work" is the owner of a nudist colony and the son of Jacob Tiernan, a ship company tycoon.
Having inherited the nudist colony from his mother, Julian is rather unpopular among the members because he brings drugs and prostitutes. During the climax, it's revealed that he's actually slightly worse than a sleazy hedonist.
What has he done?
Julian secretly runs a human trafficking ring. Taking women sold by their poor relatives or simply abducting naive immigrants, he uses his father's shipping company to bring the slaves in Los Angeles.
When an accountant named Gary Van Blunt found out and threatened to expose the business, Julian murdered him by pushing him out a window which resulted in Gary getting impaled on a big aloe plant. (yeah really)
Later, the team manages to localize the Marigold ship and catches him as he's unloading his latest batch of women. A shootout ensues between the police and his goons while he escapes. Lucifer confronts Julian in a warehouse before the latter drops barrels on him. When Julian faces a police offer who orders him to surrender, he simply guns her down without hesitation.
Lucifer breaks into his home and interrogates the man.
- Lucifer: What about the women you've been trafficking? How many of their lives have you taken? How many have you destroyed in service of your greed?
Julian: Those girls came from nothing. Starving in their villages. Sold by their relatives or stupid enough to believe that people are just handing out fresh new lives here in America. They were broken dolls before they ever got on those ships.
Julian empties his gun on the devil to no effect. Angered, Lucifer kicks him out of the window and beats the crap out of him and breaks his back crippling the prick for good.
Mitigating Factors
Julian attempts to justify that his victims were already broken before he got them but, at the same time, he mocks immigrants who seek a better life. The forensic tells us that Julian is estranged from his famous father Jacob Tiernan because he's out of control partying and had multiple run-ins with the law. This isn't played for sympathy and we're also old that Jacob often sends lawyers to clean up Julian's messes.
At one point, Lucifer does ask Julian about his father and he replies "Do you think my dad is any better than me? He's a wolf in sheep's clothing. I'm in a fancy suit and a big smile but at least I admit I'm a wolf. I mean, what kind of man pretends to be something he isn't?" Daddy issues are implied but not elaborated further. Besides I don't think "Unlike my father, I admit being a prick" counts a genuine moral standard.
Now Jacob Tiernan is the villain of the next episode "Devil As Devil Does" where he avenges Julian by sending thugs to kill a drug dealer he believes is responsible for crippling his son because Julian owed him money. When Jacob learns that Lucifer is actually the one responsible, he sends thugs to kill him. That's it.
Julian and Jacobs never interact onscreen and the quote above states that Julian has nothing but disdain for his father. I think it's pretty much a Enya and J. Geil situation.
Heinousness
The part where I'm on the fence.
In term of actual body count, He has two murders and two attempted murders on the hero. Obviously, that ALONE wouldn't make him eligible. However human trafficking is quiet a unique niche that hasn't be featured on the show at that point making him stand out a bit. He knows that he ruined the lives of many women and doesn't have a twinge of remorse. In-universe Slavery Is a Special Kind of Evil is played straight, Julian disgusts Lucifer so much that he goes berserk and beats the crap out of him.
My biggest concern against him is the relative lack of visibility of the human trafficking proper. I have to be honest here. It isn't shown in deep detail.
During the climax, we DO see a dozen women being dragged out of a boat to bet exported in a van (around 39min if you have Netflix and want a quick check). Those people are explicitly referred to as "slaves" but that’s it. The episode never focuses on those women who are just extras with no lines. It’s never elaborated about what kind of slavery they're part of (though given that Julian seemingly only targets women, I have my idea...).
Edited by Silverblade2 on Mar 26th 2020 at 5:36:29 PM
Duncan (I was gonna say we already had him up but I was thinking of Dekkom) and the Nazi
Can I have a link to the template for an EP, I was thinking about trying my hand at a CM.
Lemme think there Silver and if Lighty wants to save some time here's a Vicious rewrite:
- Cowboy Bebop: Vicious is Spike Spiegel's former friend and partner in the Red Dragon Syndicate whose hatred took over when he discovered Spike and his girlfriend Julia were having an affair and tried to force Julia to either kill Spike or both be killed by Vicious, forcing them to part ways and flee. Raising himself up in the Red Dragon, Vicious would commit espionage for the syndicate against his military superiors during a war before leaving a man who looked up to him to take the fall. Dissatisfied with the direction in which the Red Dragon was headed, Vicious murdered his own mentor, also bombing the transport ship of a rival clan representative send for peace talks to prevent an alliance Vicious disapproved of. Taking command of the Red Dragon after outplaying their leaders during what was meant to be his own execution, Vicious leads his men on a bloody battle against the attacking Spike, leading to all of their deaths as he faces down with his rival. Merciless, power-hungry and completely devoid of human compassion, Vicious stands as a dark foil to Spike, made all the more dangerous by his matching skill and guile.
If you wanna do your own that's fine too, I've just got it fresh in my head from doing him for MB.
The Draftsman of Doom
Abstain on Julian.
Rawr.
Leaning no to Julian.
Abstain on Julian, need more evidence on what other CMs from the show (if there are any) have on their rap sheets.
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
No other cms so far.
Each of the Big Bad have mitigating factors and often supernatural ressources.
The average "criminal of the week" kills one or two people and tries to kill the heroes when cornered. It isn't Criminal Mind.
There are a few stands out like professor Carlisle who coerces people into self-mutilation after poisoning some students, the villain from Sin Eaters who burned a few bullies alive.
Edited by Silverblade2 on Mar 26th 2020 at 5:56:56 PM
Gentle Laborer
Having seen Lucifer, most of the cases are about regular murders and the occasional serial killings, Human Trafficking is certainly unique for the show. That being said, I don't think Julian's crimes are explored enough for him to count.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Mar 26th 2020 at 2:01:42 PM
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
Unpopular opinion but leaning yes on Julian. If there's evidence of his crimes and that it isn't just a crime stated to have been done offscreen, I'm comfortable with that. I've dealt with similar candidates. All of Evangeline's crimes are offscreen (except gaslighting her mom) but there's so much evidence of her crimes that she's a keeper nonetheless.
"During the climax, we DO see a dozen women being dragged out of a boat to bet exported in a van (around 39min if you have Netflix and want a quick check). Those people are explicitly referred to as "slaves" but that’s it."
That, for example, is evidence of Julian's crimes. Lucifer's reaction helps as well.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Goku Black
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Julian
Sorry silver. The fact we don't even know what he does with them. Nor do any of these women get any focus means this is way too offstage.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Uh.....what do you mean here crimes are offstage ?
Yeah Georgie can you elaborate on the "evidence". I'm not feeling Julian and if there's not enough to go on for Evangeline, that sounds like a compelling case to cut her as well.
Just a question, what was the exact reason Clockwerk and Neyla weren't approved. Not going to argue anything, just want to know.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I THINK heinousness?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
Mueller.
Emperor Georgie Artémis Enkoom Evulz II
@43110 Here's the quote from Evangeline's EP:
"All of her crimes are offscreen, but there's so much evidence and impact that it's hardly Offscreen Villainy. Emily's mom is the one informing Leslie of Emily's case, the church's charred remains are seen, as well as the fishes, Audrina and Lacy's corpses, and her manipulative personnality is shown on-screen."
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)
Goku Black
That's not Offscreen Villany. That's gory discretion shot....
That also sounds much more concete then this where we dont even know what he does with them.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
BTW, has anyone contacted Age about his Kung Fu Panda writeups?
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Or Men about the Caliphate one?
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Do you think that some tropers expect US to right the entry for them. For Age, I do think it took a while for him to write that Von Talon entry so maybe he's just busy.
So Professor Moriarty from Sherlock Holmes: A Game of Shadows has crimes in the first film, since he murders a cop to steal the radio transmitter for Blackwood's machine. Is that worth including in a new draft?
Edited by k410ren on Mar 26th 2020 at 3:00:21 PM
"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
The Draftsman of Doom
I think Lighty may be the one to ask...
Rawr.
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]")
to Duncan and the Nazi
Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?