During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Based on the EP,
to Valcar.
@ACW I figured just because Saruman was introduced first, he'd be before Azog, but that works too though.
I take it the film version of Sauron is not listed because the book version already is? I checked and yes he is and that's probably why.
EDIT: Strange that for years, Christopher Lee had no CM s (until a few years ago) and now one of his most famous characters is one.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 19th 2020 at 9:11:00 AM
Then should we remove Sauron from Benedict Cumberbatch list on C Ms By Actor? By the way was it ever decided if his Richard III from The Hollow Crown counted or not?
Edited by Bullman on Mar 19th 2020 at 10:53:45 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadYeah his final fight shown onscreen comes from the movies. I also heard his iconic Tin Tyrant design comes from the films.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."ACW: I removed Sauron. I still wonder if I should do the same to his Richard.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread- Alistar Tharquin is a Knight Templar obsessed with wiping out Shapeshifters. His modus operandi involves totruring Shapeshifters (usually to death, but occasionally he releases his victims to try to seek revenge and thus further his cause. [[UnfriendlyFire Not even being on the same side as him helps, as at Torus Filney, Tharquin makes a deal with Rhoulgar to capture Jade for him in exchange for access to Viscountess Ishol Servantis. Once he has her, he proceeds to torture her for hours, in the hope of driving her to insanity and unleashing her against the Rebellion to further his cause. Despite his claims of righteousness, Tharquin is nothing more than a racist and a fundamentalist.
There may be more E Ps from this story from me in the future, but it's still ongoing, and the only reason I wrote up Rhoulgar and tharquin is because they're both dead. For other potential keepers, I'm going to wait until their role in the story is finished.
Check out my current fanfiction project.
If that's the case, I'll submit those 2 with this week's.
Also, this gets swapped tomorrow. I'll keep the Big Finish duo.
Technically speaking, doesn't Sauron count in the Lord of the Rings novel trilogy by default since it's literally the exact same character from The Silmarillion.
I've don't see why we shouldn't just list Sauron on the trilogy's YMMV page and link to his entry on The Silmarillion YMMV page.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Thing is, we could, but he doesn't really get up any new crimes in LOTR, does he?
Speaking of Sauron, potholed. Lemme know if these are all accurate (especially Dragon with an Agenda vs. Dragon Ascendant).
- Sauron, Morgoth's Dragon with an Agenda, is a demonstration of how those who were once noble can fall to great evil. Sauron was once a noble Maia who was swayed to Morgoth's side. Over time, Sauron's noble intentions for the world were replaced with vanity and lust for power. In the First Age, Sauron convinced a man to betray his comrades, showing him a vision of his beloved wife...once the man did what Sauron asked, Sauron revealed she was already dead and had his hapless pawn tortured to death as he had promised to reunite them. Upon capturing the hero Beren and his companions, Sauron placed them in his dungeons where he allowed his werewolves to slowly pick the group off, one by one, to torment the survivors. After the defeat of his master, Sauron fled to Numenor, assuming the fair form of Annatar, the Bringer of Gifts and seduced Numenor towards darkness and evil until it was a Morgoth-worshipping theocracy that practiced Human Sacrifice. This was an act so unholy, Eru Ilúvatar, the equivalent of God, stepped in to destroy Numenor. Even then, Sauron was not done, and tricked the other races with the Rings of Power, forging his One Ring to enslave all that lived. In the Third Age, he embarked on a genocidal war for conquest, seeking only to feed his lust for domination and megalomania
What's the work?
Wizard's Hall is a children's fantasy novel by Jane Yolen which bears a striking resemblance to Harry Potter, but came before it. In the novel, a boy named Henry goes to a wizarding school known as Wizard's Hall in order to become a wizard, and he is given the name "Thornmallow" (prickly on the outside, squishy on the inside). Thornmallow is drawn into a conflict between the school and an evil wizard, Nettle, who happens to be my candidate.
Who is he? What does he do?
Nettle was one of the original founders of Wizard's Hall. At first, he seemed like a nice person, but then started showing aggressive tendencies, leading to the other founders kicking him out. In retaliation, he conjured up a beast made from the founders' strongest emotions, plotting to use it to eventually devour all of the students and teachers at Wizard's Hall.
In the present day, when Nettle returns to Wizard's Hall, he begins by using his magic to "unravel" one of the teachers, Magister Hickory, and feed him to the beast. He then proceeds to hypnotize each one of the teachers and students into walking up to the beast, unraveling and feeding them to the beast as well. However, Thornmallow manages to kill him and free the students.
Heinous standard?
Sets it; I'd say feeding an entire school to a beast passes the baseline. The victims of his hypnotism are shown to be aware of what they are doing, but unable to do anything about it. The people eaten by the beast didn't necessarily die, but they are indicated to have still been conscious, as when Thornmallow frees them and lights up the room, they are crying and hugging each other out of relief.
Mitigating qualities? Freudian Excuse?
No redeeming qualities. He does have a Freudian Excuse (being rejected by the other founders of Wizard's Hall) but it was his own fault, he blows it way out of proportion, and it is not played for sympathy.
Conclusion?
I'd give him a
.
Yes to Nettle.
Well since I am off work for a couple of weeks, I thought I would read a Superman novel and propose the villains in it (and its not Brainiac), this one is part of the recent DC Icons series and was released in 2019. Its called Superman Dawnbreaker, which involves a 17-year-old Clark Kent discovering his powers and dealing with a corporate conspiracy in Smallville, since its a criminal conspiracy, I will propose all 3 villains at once, but some have a better chance of counting than others:
Who are Montgomery Mankins, Corey Mankins, and Dr. Wesley? What have they done?
Montgomery Mankins is the CEO of the powerful Mankins Corporation, Corey Mankins is his psychopathic son and heir to the company, Dr. Wesley is their on staff Mad Scientist.
Montgomery Mankins is buying up farms in Smallville, offering farmers huge sums of money for their property. He is also gaining popularity by using his money for charitable works in Smallville (nothing suspect there). But he is not doing this out of the goodness of his heart, he knows there is kryptonite meteors on buried these farms and wants them. Corey Mankins and Dr. Wesley are doing a lot of the groundwork, with Corey and Wesley setting up a shell company, Wesco, to also buy farms, so that it doesn't look like every farm is being bought out by the same party. Dr. Wesley has set up a lab in Smallville so he can perform some ghoulish experiments.
Here is where the stuff gets dark: Montgomery, Corey, and Wesley are kidnapping various Mexican immigrants in Smallville, believing the fact that some of them will be undocumented will mean their families will be less likely to go to the cops (they even kidnap child). Dr. Wesley combines kryptonite with a steroid compound called Dawnbreaker, in an attempt to turn them into super-soldiers they can sell to the highest bidder. The break down their victims' free will through a combination of mind-altering drugs and propaganda films and chain them up, not treating them like humans. They are being kept at a facility on one of the farms Wesco bought.
Investigations from Clark Kent, Lex Luthor, and Lana Lang slowly uncover this conspiracy. They are also helped by Byran Mankins, the only one in the family with any sort of moral compass. When they get evidence of their human testing, the trio decides to release the footage during a giant Mankins sponsored event in the town square. However, Lana Lang tries to get an interview with Corey Mankins (Corey has a crush on her) and hints to Corey that she may know about his conspiracy to get an interview with him. That was a mistake, Corey kidnaps her and sets up a bomb to go off during the Mankins festival, killing almost everyone in the town square killing hundreds of people in the process to distract people from their human testing operation. Clark saves Lang and gets rid of the bomb, the Mankins and Wesley flee to their testing facility.
Clark suits up as Superman and confronts them, with Byran revealing he has been part of the conspiracy, in an attempt to win his father's approval. Byran takes the Dawnbreaker formula and attacks Clark, with Clark having deal with a foe who is superhumanly strong and fueled by kryptonite which hurts Superman. Superman is able to convince Byran that what his father is doing is wrong and gets Byran's help in stopping his father (Clark's attempts at convincing Dr. Welsey fail, with Wesley being a grade-A psychopath who talks about compassion being for the weak, etc). Byran helps Superman get the cure of Dawnbreaker and distribute it to the victims, curing them but dies in the process, with Montgomery ordering his troops to shoot Byran, his own son. The cops arrive and arrest Montgomery, Corey and Dr. Wesley. But Lex Luthor has bought up the remains of the Mankins Corporation after this event, setting up a more dangerous enemy for Superman to deal with in the future.
Are they heinous by the standards of the work?
I have not read the other DC Icons novels, so I do not how interconnected they are, but I think between the human experimentation, slavery and attempted bombing of a public festival, these guys are pretty scummy for more low-level Superman villains.
Montgomery is the one in charge but Corey and Dr. Wesley are doing a lot of the leg work to make this happen. I think they are guilty of these crimes.
Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
This where things get more interesting, in terms of motives, no, they are driven by greed and racism and their charity work is just there to maintain a good image.
In terms of personal qualities, there is nothing with Dr. Wesley, he even gives Superman the typical ''compassion is for the weak, science cannot be bound by it, we are great men building empires'' speech.
Byran says Corey is seeking his father's approval and that may be true, but we never see him express actual love or affection for father and the way he mistreats his bother. He acts like some spoiled trust fund baby, saying stuff to Superman like ''My father is going to kill you freak!''
Montgomery might have something that saves his sorry butt from being pure evil. While being led away for trial, Lana and Clark unveil a banner that says ''For Byran'' and Montgomery turns pale after reading it. You argue it was just shock or embarrassment, but perhaps he actually feels guilty over killing his son.
Final Verdict?
Big yes to Dr. Welsey, I am going to go with yes with Corey, but I will go with a no with Montgomery, that one scene at the end saves his sorry butt from being pure evil.
Edited by Overlord on Mar 19th 2020 at 12:27:48 PM

Kinda late, but
to the President, my sincere condolences LordYAM and happy birthday Miraculous!
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)