During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
The Menace I think we elaned keep on.
Mr. Chameleon never even appears onscreen, though. Easy cut
Lizzid people!
Okay, I'll take Mr. Chameleon off then.
Well Crell Moset in the Terok Nor novels sterilized Bajoran children, because he felt that Cardassians wouldn't need an another generation of Bajorans. Crell claimed this was a mercy, but I think this seemed like a convenient and effective way to get rid of Bajorans so Cardassians could colonize Bajor.
edited 14th Dec '13 5:06:13 PM by TheOverlord
Cleric of Banjo
Couple of thoughts:
Yes to Old Nick- I can understand and mostly agree with the idea that not every rapist/Domestic Abuser is going to qualify, but someone who takes someone prisoner and repeatedly rapes and abuses them is in a special class of heinousness.
RE Tarquin, I honestly can see the argument that he would qualify, especially because a recent Word of God statement suggests that the author doesn't really believe that Affably Evil is possible in that one can't be a mass murdering rapist and a nice guy (which makes a lot of sense). I personally don't think Tarquin cares for anyone in a way that normal people care for others, but I think it is probably better to leave him off (and certainly to wait and see).
RE Todd, I still vote no. As others have commented, the extent to which he's the tool of others/doing evil at their behest stands out. Yes, taking Jesse prisoner was his idea, but the rest of the gang was also all for it. As I noted when Bullseye was discussed, for someone who is a mook to qualify, they really need to go above and beyond their orders (which Bullseye does but I don't think Todd does for the most part).
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Hodor mirrors my thoughts on Nick and Tarquin pretty perfectly here. I disagree on Todd, but I'm just glad to have that matter off the books now. In whatever case, it's a good argument and I'm not upset at him being a no.
The talk about Tarquin...okay, here's Joe Carroll.
Who Is He?
In The Following, Carroll was a professor of English Literature turned Serial Killer. Before being hunted down and captured by his nemesis, Agent Ryan (played by Kevin Bacon!...I like Kevin Bacon!), Carroll tortured and killed 14 young women, usually after removing their eyes. From behind bars, Carroll planned out his 'perfect' book. He planned his escape, but more than that, he got in touch with his groupies who he inspired, or other serial killers. He formed The Followers, a group of serial killers who were his own personal cult. All with frightening loyalty to him. 10 years later, he arranges his escape- and recapture, so the Followers can put his plans into motions.
What Does He Do?
Oh, god, what doesn't he do? We get to see his previous murders through photograph and he kills 5 prison guards in the first two minutes. The Pilot involves Carroll hunting down the only victim of his that escaped him. He murders her after carving her eyes out, as a loose end. He has a real thing for tormenting Ryan, as well. A Foe Yay near obsession to drive the man to his breaking point.
Then there's The Followers. Joe is explicitly responsible for what they do, as he encouraged them to 'write their own chapters' and even mentored them on killing. One of his followers learned how to kill victims from Joe personally, and we see a flashback of Joe tormenting and knifing to death a captive to show him how it's done.
Joe also cares nothing for his men. He treats them as tools to be discarded when he feels like it. He has multiple ones sacrifice their lives for him, and most have an insane devotion to him. When he learns Ryan gunned two down, his response is it's fantastic: Ryan's becoming a killer.
He gets apparent Pet the Dog bits with his ex-wife and his son, but these are hollow for reasons I'll elaborate on further.
Heinous Standard and Redeeming Qualities?
Let me get this out the way: Carroll has no freudian excuse beyond being an egomaniac sociopath. He likes to envision himself as an amazing Wicked Cultured mastermind but under it, he's a murderous sadist.
Now, his wife Carol and son Joey. Joe's feelings on people can best be described as 'detached' and he views everyone in context of being his book characters. His 'best friend' Roderick and second in command is simply only around as long as Joe needs him. Joe has no remorse whatsoever ordering him killed when Roderick realizes his usefulness is drawing to a close and Joe will dispose of him eventually.
More to that, Joe is an amazing actor and displays constant emotional manipulation. One of his most loyal followers, Emma, is enamored of him, and Joe at one point smacks her in the face when he gets mad, only to later give a gentle apology. Given how it's explicitly said he'd throw Emma aside without a second look, this is far from genuine. Also, his wife Carol was fooled by him utterly.
Joe wants Carol as his 'leading lady', but she eventually rejects it. Joe angrily responds this means he needs a "rewrite" on things and decides to murder Carol in front of Ryan (she and Ryan were romantically involved after the divorce.) He takes Carol along, taunts her about her impending death at times and isn't remorseful about killing her, just upset at losing something he wanted.
When Carol mourns how it was 'her fault' the girls died because Joe fooled her, Joe seemingly comforts her, saying it wasn't her doing...before he drags a captive man in and guts him, snarling "that is what killing someone is" and tells Carol not to take credit for his effort and work. I think the conclusion there is obvious. His son, Joey is a tougher one.
Joe's bonding with Joey takes a creepier turn, though, when we learn he's planning to turn Joey into a serial killer, and Enfante Terrible. He also pretty much forgets about Joey later when Joey is rescued. While Joe acts nice enough to Joey, his behavior is utterly manipulative towards him, and is pretty classic control-freak manipulation. As it is, I can't really say Joe has any genuine redeeming qualities. His obsession with tropes and writings also indicates he doesn't see anyone as real people, just tools for him to write. Joey is meant to be his 'sequel,' not really his 'son.'
Final Verdict
I'd like to see some thoughts. I think Joe Carroll passes. The reason I feel comfortable bringing him up now is the season ends with Carroll's seeming demise as he is thrown into a ring of flames, and a corpse is confirmed as his from dental and DNA records. However, who knows if He's Just Hiding or not for season two.
He's a lot like Red John for me. I'd like to see if anyone else has any similar interpretation or thoughts.
Cleric of Banjo
Haven't watched the show, but seems like a decent keep.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Carroll sounds like a keep.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
If his previous murders are shown, then ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Carrol looks like a keep.
To clarify: His previous murders are indeed shown, and he commits many others. He also facilitates most of the murders his cultists commit
I watch The Following and his previous murders are shown. A for me.
I think it says a lot about Joe that his 14 previous murders could be entirely Offscreen Villainy and he still has the crimes to count anyways
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
I cleaned up Majora's entry a bit:
Took a browse through Valvrave's YMMV page when I ran into an entry that was entirely spoilered out. I haven't watched the series since the episode after Haruto raped Saki, so thoughts from anyone who is still watching the series? I have replicated it below for your curiosity (beware of spoilers):
- Soichi Tokishima. He's a Mad Scientist who created the Valvraves, gene-spliced on children before they were even born and generally Crosses the Line Twice a second while maintaining the audacity to claim that it was all moral because he was given permission and funding despite the other scientists who's children were experimented on clearly state they though they signed up for something completely different.
edited 15th Dec '13 2:02:59 PM by sanfranman91
Together, we are one.
Lizzid people!
Oh, OK. Thanks, ACW.
So I've been told I need to come here and explain the reasoning for why I placed two characters from my boyfriend's Kung Fu Panda story, "A Different Lesson", as Complete Monsters. I'm not sure how much good this will do—the story isn't well known, not many on here have read it, and it's also very very long, so it would take anyone who hasn't read it a long time to be able to verify these claims. In other words, you've got to take my word for it that these details are accurate. But here we go anyway.
Heian Chao
Who Is He?
He's the Big Bad of the story. A powerful kung fu warrior, healer, chi master, and all around Kung-Fu Wizard who in the backstory originally intended to learn and master all kinds of chi powers so he could bring down a tyrannical Emperor and institute his vision of how the empire should be run. However, not only are the acts he has to commit in order to achieve this terrible, but the powers themselves corrupt and madden him until, by the time of the story, he's over nine hundred years old and all he cares about is ruling the world, controlling the lives and willpowers of everyone alive, being immortal, and forcing everyone to do as he thinks is right.
What Does He Do?
Let's start with the very first evil acts he commits—slaughtering the entire class of young kung fu students at the Jade Palace, then killing all of his fellow masters and former friends (leaving only Oogway alive, who is the one that defeated and imprisoned him). Of note is the fact he used his dark chi to take control of several of them, or inflame their rage to the point they lost control, and thus made them kill each other, too. In the present day, when he is free again, he possesses both Vachir and Monkey (the former is shown completely onscreen and is a particularly horrific Mind Rape). Vachir's body, with his soul in helpless residence, is then forced to commit countless murders (including of children), leaving behind all kinds of bloody, mutilated bodies that are crucified or otherwise displayed in gruesome ways, all just to get Tai Lung to go and face him. The story says the number of victims is anywhere from 50 to 100, possibly more, and what is done to them is actually shown without a discretion shot for four victims. He incites a Hate Plague through Monkey that caused the rest of the Five to start becoming suspicious, argumentative, and eventually turning on each other. He corrupts and poisons the Sacred Pool so as to cast his shadow over the whole Valley and possess everyone in town, which leads to a rather monstrous Kangaroo Court for Tai Lung when he's put on trial for a murder he's been framed for and everyone becomes a mob out for his blood. He raises the Anvil of Heaven from the dead to fight the heroes, and later unleashes demons from the spirit world. He forces Monkey to try to kill both Mantis and Tigress, and the former would have actually died if not for Oogway's spirit. (And Monkey believed he was dead, so he suffered from the guilt for that.) He hangs a couple of victims on grappling hooks from the ceiling of their own basement, with their son's dead, gutted body between them, and leaves them there for a month and a half to slowly bleed to death and enrich his chi with their fear and agony. (One of them suffered Eye Scream too.) He nearly ages one character to death, hires the Wu Sisters to kill Po, and while he was imprisoned his soul, wandering by astral projection, helped corrupt and twist Tai Lung, thus pushing him into committing his rampage and keeping him insane and focused on revenge while in Chorh-Gom. He even betrayed Xiu in the end despite her unwavering loyalty, trying to draw out all her chi to power himself.
Heinous Standard and Redeeming Qualities?
Everyone who encounters him (save one, Xiu), is absolutely terrified and sickened by him, his powers, and his actions. Even Xiu, who is a sociopath, is startled and a little disturbed by the Room Full of Crazy he makes Monkey create, and Vachir, who hated Tai Lung, refuses to help him and so has to be tortured and possessed into being his pawn. The bodies all make everyone who sees them horrified (Po throws up, and Tai Lung is enraged by them) and determined to put a stop to him. Finding out who and what he is even makes people who were against Tai Lung change their tune and put their support behind the snow leopard so he can get rid of Chao for them. The things he does or makes others do go completely beyond what we'd seen Tai Lung himself or Lord Shen do (and in Tai Lung's case, some of what he did was actually encouraged by Chao through More than Mind Control), and everyone from Shifu down to Po himself wants to see him destroyed, with never any sense they could or would try reasoning with him or redeeming him (as Po did with both Tai Lung and Shen).
When he was still his former self, Chao did have one tiny moment of remorse when he was forced to kill one of his best friends, but after that twinge he never looked back and not only never regretted any of his acts, he relished them, even getting sexually aroused off of some of them. He believes it all justified in the name of him gaining all power and controlling everyone's lives to "end suffering" but in truth it's really all about domination and For the Evulz, with any other claims he makes for his motivations being false to engineer sympathy. Even if some of them are ones he still believes, they don't in any way justify his actions. And those actions are so horrible that it is impossible for him to be redeemed, nor does he have any qualities that make him likable or capable of redemption.
Wu Xiu
Who Is She?
She's the eldest of the Wu Sisters, a cold, black-hearted woman who loves being an assassin and is willing to do anything and everything to, as the story puts it, "become Mistress Death".
What Does She Do?
She killed her own father just for being "weak" and good, and then framed her sister Jia for it so she could twist and manipulate her into obeying and serving her implicitly as an assassin, keeping her broken and pitifully under her thumb for years by making her believe it was all her fault. She poisoned countless soldiers who had been fighting the Huns, and made others so terrified to be put under care as a nurse that they deserted or betrayed China just to avoid that fate; when this was discovered, she murdered her kung fu master and fled. She tried to manipulate Tai Lung into joining her with lies about his family (and also helped plant doubts regarding Shifu and Oogway's love and pride in him so he would fixate on the Dragon Scroll to earn them). She kidnapped Ping, killed Zhuang (a new character whom a lot of readers loved and was a friend to everyone in the palace, including Tai Lung) and framed Tai Lung for it, and nearly killed Po and Tigress on several occasions. She was willing to let her sisters die to achieve her goals, and in fact after they started having second thoughts and tried to resist her, she determined to kill them when she no longer needed them any more. And she longed to have the same powers Chao had so she could do the same things he did, all because she loved death, wanted to be the best assassin in the empire, and to have the power to control life and death, determining at her whim who would survive and who wouldn't.
Heinous Standard and Redeeming Qualities?
While she isn't guilty of the supernatural evils that Chao is, she definitely commits plenty of heinous mortal acts, from blackmail to mental manipulation and domination to murder to kidnapping. She too contributed to Tai Lung's rampage, she made everyone (including her half-sister Mei Ling and her stepmother) believe Jia was guilty of their father's murder so that everyone would turn on her and she'd be a wanted criminal. She was quite happy to try and kill Po repeatedly, despite the fact Po's parents had made the Wu Sisters promise to look out for him. She traumatizes Ping, badly beats Po, Tai Lung, and Tigress, and worst of all, while everyone else (even her sisters) is sickened and disturbed by Chao and the things he does, Xiu loved them and gleefully supported him in everything he did. In fact the feeling of Chao's dark chi actually caused her ecstasy so that she wanted to bathe in it. And unlike Jia, and even Chun who ended up having lots of doubts about Chao and what they were doing for him, she never once showed a single moment of remorse, regret, uncertainty, or anything except malicious, cruel, vindictive nastiness. And she considered anyone who argued for compassion, kindness, or any other good emotion or act to be pathetic, only worthy of being killed, manipulated, or twisted for her own amusement. No redeeming features whatsoever.
Both of them receive pretty awful fates which the readers all thought were incredibly deserved; no one had sympathy for either of them; neither is redeemed and it's pretty clear they can't be. Though it should be noted that some readers actually had trouble deciding which was more heinous, everyone agreed they were both utter monsters.
I know my boyfriend's story is really long, but you really should read it if you want to know how accurate all this is—it's just scratching the surface really, and a lot of what I said is even worse when you see exactly how it was done, or the way the characters speak and act while doing it.
edited 15th Dec '13 5:32:01 PM by Ingonyama
Another version of Joker we could add is the Joker from Batman Under The Red Hood, Joker beats up a young Jason Todd with crowbar and then blows him up with a bomb. He brutally kills some of Black Mask's goons with a piece of glass and then a gun, for no reason and later decides to try and kill Black Mask and Red Hood's gangs by pouring gasoline on them and setting them on fire.
edited 15th Dec '13 5:54:48 PM by TheOverlord
A for Heian Chao and Wu Xiu. Also one for Carroll.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
For them. Than you for coming here.
For the Joker, I believe
Heian Chao and Wu Xiu. for Batman Under The Red Hood Joker
Cleric of Banjo
Thumbs up to that iteration of the Joker, who is pretty much played as an older, nastier version of the DCAU one.
Also, have a suggestion, was brought up under the Forum thread for the show- I think Peter Pan from Once Upon a Time may qualify- spoilers ahead!- He was killed off in this episode (his son, Rumpelstilstkin- It Makes Sense in Context- did a Taking You with Me), and twice prior to that, Pan makes explicit that he never loved his son or anyone, which puts him apart from other villains on the show.
Pan tries to cast a curse to kill everyone in the town, and needs to sacrifice the person he loves most- since he doesn't really love or care for anyone except himself, the closest he can get is to kill one of his minions who was always very loyal to him (which Pan appreciated). Pan kills the guy with an amused, off hand attitude.
Pan's backstory is that he started out as the selfish, reckless Manchild father of Rumpelstiltskin, and chose to abandon his son in order to become an immortal child in Neverland, and once he achieves that, finds out that he doesn't quite have perfect immortality, and so from that point onward schemes to find a way of sacrificing someone else to get perfect immortality.
He's presented throughout as a cruel Psychopathic Manchild.
I didn't catch the whole season so can't really give a good, concise description of his evil deeds, but he's notably treated as heinous even by other villains- everyone is willing to band together to stop him.
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Peter Pan as a villain? Maybe it's the Disney fan in me but it's very...not what I would see coming.
Cleric of Banjo
Well, among other things, he has these shadows he controls steel children for him to be his lost boys (I forget if this was ever explained as being part of a larger plan).
He also started up a group of magic-hating and hunting knight templars who unknowingly serve his ends.
Toward the end of the season, he steals the body of one of the main characters, a young boy named Henry.
And the last thing he does before being killed is unleash a curse to kill the entire town of Storybrooke- I kind of missed things, but as I understand it, he would have left Rumpel alive and powerless as a Fate Worse than Death.
Pan is presented differently in the show than in other media- there's kind of a Decomposite Character thing going on- Pan is the cruel Psychopathic Manchild element of the character; his son, Rumpel, fills the role of the crocodile that took Hook's hand (It Makes Sense in Context), and Rumpel's son, Baelfire, fills the role of "magical kid who befriends the Darlings".
edited 15th Dec '13 8:34:07 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki
Some of those have to bee looked over first.
Slappy , Mr. Toggle, and Karl seem like the only keeps.
edited 14th Dec '13 4:11:01 PM by VeryMelon