During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Sure go ahead, that character does not interest me much.
Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster
Cool. I'll do it sometime tomorrow.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts
Okay I think I have another possible keeper from an Italian series, this time from one of my favourite detective series of all.
Il Commissario Montalbano (or Inspector Montalbano in English speaking countries) is an absolutely brilliant series based on the novel series by Andrea Camilleri. Luca Zingaretti plays the titular Salvatore "Salvo" Montalbano, the senior police investigator in the fictional small Sicily town of Vigata. A highly intelligent if a bit testy man, Montalbano constantly struggles to juggle the more modern bureaucratic and regulation based policing style of the North, with the complicated web of relationships and arrangements of the South.
He is assisted by his loyal team, his deputy the competent but slightly to imaginative Mimi Augello, the reliable but a bit too good at investigating Giuseppe Fazio, the brave but slightly to enthusiastic officer Galluzzo, and the bumbling but absolutely loyal Catarella.
I cannot stress enough how much I recommend this show. It’s been one of my favourites since I first saw it. Just don’t watch it on an empty stomach, your regret it trust me.
Now whilst the series mostly focuses on down to earth crimes, often woven into the complex situations, occasionally the show has some darker episodes. Which brings us quite nicely to my candidate, Baddar Gafsa.
Who Is he:
The main antagonist of season 5’s “Il giro di boa” or “Turning Point”, Baddar Gafsa is a vicious Tunisian criminal identifiable by a nasty scar he has down the left side of his face. A notorious Human Trafficker who specialises in smuggling children, Gafsa takes advantage of the crisis’s going on in North Africa to ensure a constant fresh supply of victims to sell on the black market, with it being claimed Gafsa is responsible for smuggling potentially thousands of victims into Sicily.
Upon arrival and processing he sells the children onto organised crime, illegal adoptions, paedophiles or for the more healthy ones to be harvested for their organs.
What Does He Do:
Using his fleet of fishing boats to act as a cover to get his victims across from Africa, Gafsa sets up his latest base just outside of Vigata, using an old abandoned tuna factory by the cost. He sets the running of the operation in Italy, to the notorious criminal and fugitive Ernesto Errera.
Through a local Loan Shark, Don Pepe, Gafsa manages to blackmail an ambulance driver to act as his courier. The children would be brought in on a fishing boat, along with several genuine refugees and a female associate of his who would poses as their mother. They would then fake an injury, allowing the ambulance driver to take them to A&E, as there are no cameras. Then his men would pick them up and take them to Tuna factory for processing.
However, upon discovering Errera had been bringing a girl (who just happens to be Montalbano’s friend Ingrid Sjostrom) to sleep with at the factory and overall acting too big for his briches, Gafsa has his men tie Errera up and drown him in the sea.
He then has the body stashed in the sea water for a week, until it’s decomposed beyond recognition and then has it thrown into the sea, so that even if they identify the murder they will assume the body has floated down from the north (a gambit that only fails due to Montalbano being friends with a fisherman, who identifies the body is simply in to good condition to have done so).
Upon the arrival of the third shipment of victims a few days later, one of the children, a boy between eight and nine, manages to escape. Not risking him revealing their operation, Gafsa has his men run him over.
A few nights later, planning a larger shipment (over sixteen children, all boys between eight and ten) Gafsa arrives in Vigata to personally take over the running of the operation, having the Ambulance driver transport him to the factory.
To distract the coast guards, Gafsa has four other boats filled with people sail to four different ports in the west and the east. Upon arrival, he personally directs his men to collect the children.
However, Montalbano having managed to piece all this together (starting with him finding Errera’s body whilst out for a swim) has the entire police force on standby. Sneaking into the factory, he is forced to engage when one of Gafsa’s goons starts viciously beating a child for reacting badly when the doctor tries to take a blood sample.
Being informed by another man that someone’s inside, a furious Gafsa storms into the factory. Although Montalbano manages to catch him at gunpoint, Gafsa proves to be the faster shot. Throwing himself to the floor, Montalbano tricks Gafsa into thinking he killed him. Gafsa goes back outside to continue running things but before he can Montalbano manages to shoot him through the heart.
His men are likewise rounded up by the officers, and the children rescued. Montalbano thankfully makes it to hospital in time.
Any Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Traits:
None given. Gafsa is presented as simply preying upon the vulnerable to make himself rich.
He’s never seen abusing his men, but he likewise doesn’t seem to care about them. He completely ignores the two who are unconscious after believing he killed Montalbano.
Now being completely fair, his overall role in the story itself is pretty minimal, only appearing in two scenes at the end. Likewise Gafsa never actually speaks.
However, we do get a few insights into his personality. Such as him refusing to lower the ambulance drivers debt for an unseen delivery because he was forced to sedate one boy which he took as "damaged goods", his visible rage at the end, and seeming sense accomplishment when he thinks he killed Montalbano.
Likewise his plans do involve some pretty clever deceptions, and it’s made very clear by a local journalist that Gafsa is not only the unambiguous boss of this ring but an overall infamous figure in general.
Heinous Standard:
Generally the series focuses on more reasonable down to earth crimes. With many antagonists killing only one or two people. There are occasional higher body counts, particularly in stories involving The Mafia, but generally not that much.
Human trafficking however, is a completely different kettle of fish. Whilst we only see two of Gafsa’s deliveries (it’s mentioned there were a previous two following this set up), that together still amounts to over twenty children and likewise sets the pattern.
There was one other case involving human trafficking for illegal organ donation, but the operation was entirely off screen (it being the explanation for a mysterious set of murders) and handled by unseen crime bosses (generally when dealing with organised crime this show prefers to keep the actual people responsible off screen, only showing a few lowly foot soldiers and middle men).
Likewise, Gafsa is the only antagonist so far to actually kill a child. And one of only two to target one.
Its also mentioned he uses his smuggling operation to smuggle informers and terrorists into the country, but that's never actually seen.
Conclusion:
Gafsa is easily heinous enough, I’m honestly quite surprised as I wasn’t expecting this series to have any keepers. The only issue is if you feel he has sufficient personality. I myself I’m not entirely sure, but I was advised to give him a try.
So what do you think?
Edited by MGD107 on Jan 19th 2020 at 7:05:07 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Gafsa.
Edit: Guys, please don't ignore MGD's effortpost.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jan 19th 2020 at 10:41:53 AM
Rawr.
![[tdown]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_down_emoticon_3571.png "[thumb down]"){kind=small}
Ransom. Seems like generic slasher and noir villainy fare. He’d be more of a hate sink so do so him there if you’d like.
Current looking to see if any good SW fanfic has any qualifiers(trying to cope with episode ix disappointment and Reylo disappointment by reading fanfic, which dosent necessary have to be Reylo, but that’s that).
My next efforpost will involve a work I rather despise. It’s perhaps the most controversial work on AlternateHistory.com and of which I am part of the hatedom for.
Edited by xie323 on Jan 19th 2020 at 7:43:17 AM
Lizzid people!
Not really the place to vent on SW; please do it somewhere else.
Ok got it. I was more just talking about why I’m reading fanfic in the first place. Didn’t mean to start a non CM related discussion on SW.
My apologies
Edited by xie323 on Jan 19th 2020 at 7:43:03 AM
Yes to Gafsa.
Has anyone reserved Hudson & Rex? If not, could I since I'm Canadian and it's a buddy cop show about a highly intelligent dog. Yes to Gafsa by the way.
Edited by Klavice on Jan 19th 2020 at 8:02:23 AM
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
I have an obscure proposal from a terrible anime OVA (I've seen this one and it's really bad), Blue Flames. The anime is listed here and can be found in Japanese on Youtube. You may want to consult that page (I'll be quoting its entry quite a bit). A review for those who reasonably don't want to watch it can be found here.
Who is it?
The Invincible Villain protagonist, Ryuichi Kaizu. He's a sex addict who uses women as stepping stones to achieve his goal (going to Tokyo University and succeeding), and he doesn't care if he hurts them at all. Ryuichi has been compared unfavorably to Light Yagami because he lacks any of Light's cool or redeeming qualities. Also a rare case of a Designated Hero who should qualify.
What does he do?
The father and brother of a rich girl he sleeps with ask him to break up with their daughter, so he makes the breakup as harsh as possible, driving her to attempt suicide. He does this after getting an huge bribe for said break up. Then he brags about it to one of her admirers and he attacks Ryuichi (this is sadly the closest to being punished he gets). The boy gets in trouble only but Ryuichi soon delivers a Curb-Stomp Battle to him (revealing that he allowed himself to get beat up just to be an ass).
A later girlfriend of his rightfully objects to his sleeping around. He then rapes her into submission. He spends the rest of the OVA, humiliating a star baseball player and stealing his girlfriend. I might be missing a couple crimes but that's the more or less what he does.
Any mitigating factors?
While the anime never portrays him in a judgmental light and he's a Karma Houdini, he also lacks any Pet the Dog moments and isn't given an excuse either. He's definitely a Designated Hero but Griffin proves that it can happen. The OVA definitely isn't a Black Comedy nor is it a hentai. The anime is poorly written but that's never been a problem in the past.
I'd say his actions are easily heinous enough. Further more, he's the only real villain in the OVA and the baseball player doesn't have any crimes at all. He completely lacks empathy or motivation to redeem himself.
While he's popular with the ladies, one of them does object to him and some of the male characters are also shocked by his actions towards them. Do you guys think he qualifies or not?
Edited by Idisagree on Jan 19th 2020 at 8:09:40 AM
Souns like a total asshole, but not seeing him as bad enough for CM
I fixed the wall of text. Just remember that he has all the resources of a college/high School student and no supernatural powers/resources. Also I'd say he does more than some approved monsters like Kamoshida (Persona 5) or Great Fusilli (Courage the Cowardly Dog). The latter of those 2 I'll get to later (I'm not sure how he slipped past that show's heinous standard). Kamoshida I still stand with being one though. The work is thankfully only 45 minutes long ...
Edited by Idisagree on Jan 19th 2020 at 8:14:15 AM
It's just two real crimes there. He's terrible, but not CM level
I think the problem here is everyone is expecting either mass murder on a cosmic level, or at least 50 murders on screen, for someone to count which just doesn't work in some works. Obviously, if the kid shared a universe with Tarkin, Palpatine, or The Joker for example, he would fail the heinous standard... but the standard of that particular universe from my understanding isn't that high. I think we don't need to judge shonen works under a blanket heinous standard of say 200 onscreen murders (hyperbole intended). Though I do disagree with him being more heinous than some examples as those works didn't have a very high heinous standard to begin with. Most of P5's villains were redeemed and didn't do a whole lot.
But if I'm wrong about Heinous standards, then he could be a Hate Sink.
Edited by Klavice on Jan 19th 2020 at 8:29:03 AM
Fair warning: I can get pretty emotional and take things too seriously.
Okay, I understand (I really don't want to watch said OVA again anyway) but would like a third opinion. Also a Hate Sink is designed to be hated and make the heroes look better but it's unclear if that's the case.
There's one Complete Monster that probably shouldn't be here, The Great Fusilli. I'm not sure how he ended up approved given the show's heinous standard. There are a few villains besides Katz who are arguably worse among other things.
The first problem is that unlike Terrance D'Arby (Jojo's Bizarre Adventure), we have no way of knowing his victims are conscious or sentient after being transformed (something that's explicit in the latter and put Terrance just over the heinous standard). For extent and purposes he may just be a Serial Killer or murderer (something that isn't that uncommon for the setting). He's got one big crime but I feel that's not enough for him to qualify. Unlike Katz, he's no more serious than some of the nastier villains.
For example, Benton Tarantella was an undead serial killer (along with his assistant) who posed as a film director to get into people's houses. Mad Dog was a violent mob boss who abused Kitty (his girlfriend) and would try to kill anyone who'd get in his way. The Cruel Veterinarian sent countless sentient dogs (which he was aware of) to the moon (including Courage's parents) For Science!, was sadistic, and was Courage's first villain. Dr. Zalost gave the whole town clinical depression (he was planning to spread it further but is ultimately way too sympathetic to qualify) because of his own misery. Plenty of villains have attempted murder in the past including the Cajun Fox (one of the more comedic villains) and King Ramses. Even Eustace Bagge has done some pretty nasty things but is nowhere near qualifying.
All these things coupled with Katz (who definitely qualifies) make it a little hard for the Great Fusilli to keep up with the heinous standard. Do you guys think we should disqualify him or am I just rambling?
Edited by Idisagree on Jan 19th 2020 at 8:51:02 AM
Lizzid people!
Fusilli killed roughly 12 victims in his single appearance. Katz himself has more screentime in his favor.
The problem with Benton is that he genuinely cared for his partner in crime; Zalost is insufficiently heinous because his plan doesn't consist of committing mass murder; Mad Dog is a Domestic Abuser but does not breach the baseline of the show, the Cruel Veterinarian is also insufficiently heinous, etc.
Edited by AustinDR on Jan 19th 2020 at 9:16:18 AM
The Draftsman of Doom
The wifi here sucks
keep Fusili and to Ryuichi
I see that the Heath Ledger Joker from the Dark Knight movie is listed as a Complete Monster. However, I just watched this video that kinda puts that into question. It's involves the ambigioity of the Joker and his goals in the Dark Knight.
Edited by deathnoteFNBOI58 on Jan 19th 2020 at 12:26:42 PM
Fusili might've had 12 victims but the Vet is confirmed to have more victims. Katz tried to kill more people in at least one of his appearances and has done Fate Worse than Death to several people (turning them into living machinery and having them fight each other) in another appearance. I never said that the others qualified but that there crimes affected the heinous standard. I just can't see his crimes as being distinctly heinous by the series standards. Katz might've had more screen-time/roles but would possibly still count if limited to his 3 worst appearances. 
Edited by Idisagree on Jan 19th 2020 at 9:20:32 AM
Lizzid people!
The Veterinarian did not kill anyone. He was responsible for Courage being abandoned as a pup, but he has a nonexistent body count. What I meant on screentime is Katz is the closest thing there is to a Big Bad whereas Fusilli is a Monster of the Week. So, he can't be compared to Katz in regards to that field.
Edited by AustinDR on Jan 19th 2020 at 9:19:18 AM
Shin Megami Tensei IV
So, I don't like cutting anyone but...do Haruki Kusakabe from Martian Successor Nadesico count?
Don't get me wrong, he is awful. But after watching Prince of Darkness
1) He has one scene where he actually seems unaware of the experiments made on Akito and Yurika, where he is like "wait a minute, what is that?" and his Mad Scientist has to go and tell him "eh, wait" (by the way, I really want the interquel game because that Mad Scientist seemed like a possible keeper, being the real mastermind behind the experiments on Akito and Yurika while being a real creep to the latter)
and 2 and far more important
2) He faces defeat with concern for his forces. He outright give up while mentioning the safety of his own forces. While you can say that he does it for Pragmatic Villainy...It really don't show that he is doing it to save himself, is all a very "...I lost...I just give up because I don't want lose men in a battle that I already lost"
The dude is a warmonger that would make a soldier kill his best friend to prevent peacetalks because he is obsessed with continuing the war against Earth, but mitigating moments are mitagating.
...Heck, I just rewatched the scene and it makes Kusakabe more sympathetic that I remembered.
Martian successors: Shut up evil witch / Don't quit, we can do it, we are the best / Yeah! Yeah!
Kusakabe closes eyes, thinking about it
Kusakabe: I just want your honour words that they (his soldiers) would be well treated
Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 19th 2020 at 12:39:40 PM
Watch me destroying my country
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
@Deathnote
That's Alternative Character Interpretation
Edited by Kylotrope on Jan 19th 2020 at 7:30:47 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here
My biggest point is that Benton (who had less resources than Fusili and only 1 major appearance) and Katz (more appearances but nastier crimes) are worse (there's no prize for second place, especially given his resources). The other mentioned villains have crimes unique to them and at least slightly affect the heinous standard. If a more heinous villain shows a mitigating trait, shouldn't that disqualify less heinous villains.
If he stays and my candidate is rejected, that's okay. I don't have time to argue with you guys anyway and will probably go away from this thread.
Why's Oogie Boogie and DOR-15 on the Never Again list? I don't recall either of them being big problems in the past (especially compared to the others on that list). Shen Yu (Mulan) was much much more of a problem back in the day (to the point of edit-wars) and might as well be on the 'Definitely A CM' (he's The Quiet One but has enough characterization to count and is more than heinous enough and his crimes aren't Off Screen Villainy).
@deathnote (the user); yeah, most Complete Monsters wouldn't care about their men dying and wouldn't spare someone unless it helps them.
Edited by Idisagree on Jan 19th 2020 at 9:45:43 AM
If Overlord's cool with it, I'll gladly look into her tomorrow. Only 2 issues, plus I want a 616 CM.
CM Dates; CM Pending; CM Drafts