During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Kira (remind me, why does the canon version not count? Haven't seen Jojo)
Ransom
Kira's morality is crazy warped, and he's a bit too nuts.
Essentially, he's a normal, productive memebr of society whose vice just happens to be serial murder, while he treats the women he murders as his legitimate 'girlfriends' through keeping their hands. It's bizarre and twisted but compare him tot he morass of open sadists.
Yes to Otis, Kyojo, Varney, Harlequin and Kira.
No to Ransom, he is a typical Cozy Mystery villain and no to Shen.
I just read a so bad its good novel Spider-Man: Requiem from 2008, that is trying a little too hard to be grim and gritty and it doesn't feature typical monsters like Carnage and Green Goblin, this book may as well be called Revenge of the D-List Villains, featuring: Sin Eater, Carrion, the cult of the Scriers, etc. Now this book features a combo of Sin Eater/Carrion who kills random people to torture Spidey, but he is totally insane and gives his life to stop the demon Chthon from appearing in our world near the end of the novel. The leader of the Scriers tries to summon Cthhon to Earth, but doesn't do much else. So that leaves Sin Eater's uncle, who is also secretly a serial killer:
Who is the Surgeon? What has he done?
Emory Carter is the uncle of Stan Carter, the Sin Eater. Emory Carter was also secretly a serial killer who operated back in the 1980s called the Surgeon. His M.O was to kidnap women he was attracted to (athletic, brown-haired women in their 20s) and remove all of their organs, then dump the body in the street. He claimed he was removing illness from them and making them healthy, but he is clearly getting a sexual thrill from this and thinks his killings makes him feel like a god. He kills 18 women over a 7 year period but decides to stop after an encounter with the police leaves him with a busted hip and he barely escapes.
Now the Surgeon is retired and spends his days in the park, looking at women he wants to kill, but cannot because of his advanced age. Also, his victims from the 1980s are not off-screen, he has a box in his house with pieces of tongues from his victims, just so he can remember them, how pretty they were and how fun it was to cure them. Emory gets pulled over by a female cop, who he thinks has discovered his secret. Emory was about to kill her (even though she is not his usual type) to keep his secret, but the cop just says his tail light is out and he drives off, almost having killed her.
Emory decides to try again after 20 years, pretending to be a harmless old man who lost his keys and tricking a woman who fits his M.O and tries to lure her to his van and knock her out with a bat, but his age has caught up with him and the woman escapes, Emory has to flee before the cops arrive. Emory is sad that his serial killing days are truly behind him.
But Emory gets lucky. You see Emory's nephew is Stan Carter, the Sin Eater, a different, but totally insane serial killer from a classic Spidey tale The Death of Captain Jean De Wolfe. Stan is dead, but the cult of the Scriers resurrects him with the Carrion virus, making him the new Carrion. Stan Carrion ends up dying after helping Spidey defeat the Sciers and their plan to summon the demon Chthon to Earth. But Emory gets infected by the virus and becomes the new Carrion. Emory wastes no time using his new body and powers to go on a killing spree, killing 2 women, dumping their organs on the street and writing numbers by the victims (1 for the first victim, 2 for the second victim, etc). The Surgeon/Carrion is about to claim a third victim when Spidey gets involved. Spidey defeats the new Carrion and he ends up dying in the process.
Is he heinous by the standards of the story?
I think so, I am not sure how much continuity there is with these 2000s era novels, but even if there is, Emory is a pretty low-level bad guy, Robot Master would have way more resources than he does and other villains, like Dr. Octopus, has a pretty generic scheme in his novel.
Stan Carter Carrion kills a lot of random people in this novel just to torture spidey, but the gruesome way the Surgeon kills people is pretty nasty, the trophies make the kills from the 80s onscreen and he killed 2 women, tried to kill 2 others and would have killed that cop who tried to arrest her. He only reason he doesn't have a bigger body count is that he is an old man for most of the book.
Does he have any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?
No Freudian Excuse and we have to play a game, is his redeeming qualities real or self-serving BS done by a serial killer who has a type and pretentious of virtue that may not be there.
Now the Surgeon sticks to his type, almost fanatically. The Surgeon tells himself he does not kill a true innocent like a child, that he doesn't kill old people because he doesn't like handling degraded bodies and that he wants to free his victims from their illness. That's one line in the entire book, it's certainly not something that is brought up often. He claims he wanted to kill people who have lived little, sinned and have been sinned against, but also describes how attractive his victims are.
Here is my counter to all that, I think he gets a sexual thrill about killing attractive dark-haired women in their 20s and think all this I am curing them stuff is self-serving nonsense, if that was the case, he would be killing at random, not a particular type. He almost freaked out when he found freckles on his victims, that is how particular he is. When he talks about how killing makes him feel like a god, any pretentious of good intentions go out the window.
I do not think he doesn't target children due to innocence, they do not fit his M.O, I think he is telling himself that to make himself feel like a better person than he is, he leaves children alone because they do not interest him, he generally doesn't target men for the same reason. He was willing to kill Spidey and that female cop for trying to stop him, he is not attracted to either of them, but I think he will go out of his M.O to kill people who would stop him.
Final Verdict?
The Surgeon General here may or may not count if you think his redeeming qualities are real or not.
And according to Ravok, dude's also legit insane.
Added to the batch
:
- Chasing the Dead, by Joe Schreiber: Isaac Hamilton, following his death and subsequent revival by Haitian holy men, becomes a force of pure evil. Becoming a harvester of souls, Isaac targets children, killing them and blowing out their eyes, the Windows of the Soul, to gain control of their dead bodies. Taken apart by the parents of his victims and his body parts scattered across the state, Isaac manages to return using the body of his first victim as a vessel, continuing his killing spree for well over a century. Enraged when two of his would-be victims, Sue and Phillip, attack and seemingly kill his vessel, Isaac returns to haunt them in adulthood, killing Phillip before abducting Sue's infant daughter Veda, forcing her to drive Phillip's corpse through the towns his parts are buried to revive Phillip's body under his control. Killing anyone who gets in his way, Isaac finally attacks Sue and Veda via an army of all his resurrected child victims, planning to force Sue to choose who will die first.
- Skyrim Game Mod Falskaar: Yngvarr Unnvaldr is the Jarl of the city of Staalgarde, as well as the secret benefactor of the bandits plaguing Amber Creek. Fueled by jealously against the Borvaldur family—resulting from his own incompetence—Yngvarr seeks immortality from the Heart of the Gods; to this end, he orders massacres of helpless civilians and slaughters the city of Borvald to a man. When the heroes act against him, Yngvarr kidnaps Agmar's wife and son and threatens their lives in exchange for the keys, then goes back on his word and tries killing them all. Proving callous towards his own men and even own city, which he fools into sacrificing itself for supposedly "noble" reasons, Yngvarr proves himself the greatest monster in Falskaar's history, and would willfully kill everyone on it for his own gain.
EDIT: Sure to the Serial Killer. Wasn't Sin-Eater the whole thing that caused Eddie Brock to be fired? And I remember Carrion from the Maximum Carnage game.
Edited by ACW on Jan 19th 2020 at 6:37:03 AM
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Fair enough, I personally think he is saying that just because children not in his M.O and its pretty easy for him to say that when they are not in his M.O. I think a villain who weaves a lot of BS, cannot be trusted on face value to tell the truth.
I think the children are innocent thing is on the same level as his instance he is curing people he kills, he tells himself he is better than normal serial killers. I think he just sticks to type and will only kill those he is attracted to. I don't think he is killing men for the same reason. IMO. But that is my 2 cents. But if people disagree and he gets downvoted, I am fine with that.
Edited by Overlord on Jan 19th 2020 at 3:38:53 AM
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Even if that legitimately was just Sturgeon trying to convince himself that he was doing the right thing, it would still keep him from being a CM, because it would mean that he actually needed to justify what he does to himself rather than just not caring that it was wrong.
Edited by Critica7 on Jan 19th 2020 at 3:47:28 AM
Check out my current fanfiction project.Oh well, I have a few more DC and Marvel novels in my possession that has not been looked at, a Wolverine novel from 2008 and a Batman novel from 2007 featuring Scarecrow. I would propose the cult leader, but I am not sure summoning a demon in by itself likely is bad enough for a Marvel Universe novel.
@ ACW, yeah Sin Eater was the guy who lost Eddie his job, Eddie named the wrong guy as the Sin Eater and got fired and blamed Spidey, for catching a serial killer. Which is why Eddie Brock's origin does not make sense. Carrion is an obscure, but long-running Spidey villain:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrion_(comics)
Edited by Overlord on Jan 19th 2020 at 4:14:46 AM
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I am not sure, he thinks Chthon will take over the world and will give him power over the world. He resurrected Stan Carter as Carrion and is indirectly to blame for everything he does. SHIELD and a college professor seem to think the book that summons Chthon, the Darkhold, is bad news, it gets sent to a SHIELD facility meant to hold dangerous artifacts. It makes a research team kill each other and when Carrion has it, it tries to convince him to cause a traffic crash, just for fun.
One of the scriers eventually turns against the leader and kills him, to prevent Chthon from arriving, dying in the process.
Edited by Overlord on Jan 19th 2020 at 4:19:42 AM
Yoshikage
So a CM could be someone who use to be a good person, right? Because someone in mind is someone who's downward spiral into evil came from a pretty harmless goal, to be at the top. But their obsession in reaching that goal cause them slip into deprave acts, eventually leading them to do horrible and immoral acts like kidnapping and attempted bombings. My hesitation is that his reason for his goal was reletable at first, Desperately Craves Affection, but the longer they were expose to their ambition lead them to doing some horrid acts.
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
to Ransom and Surgeon, and yes, Polar, if you want to complain about Reylo being cut short or whatever, please do it somewhere else.
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Another example is King Boo, who wanted to protect his fellow Boos in the first game, but became consumed by vengeance for the rest of the trilogy, shedding his good intentions along the way.
Edited by MasterN on Jan 19th 2020 at 4:38:10 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.Ironically there is a Spidey/Daredevil villain called the Surgeon General who kidnapped people and remove their organs and sell them for a profit:
https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Angeline_Kutter_(Earth-616)
That is a bad M.O I guess, but most people consider her a lame D-list villain.
~ACW, would you be willing to look into the above character?
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jan 19th 2020 at 7:43:08 AM
