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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Kirby0189 Kirby is shaped like a friend from America Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
Kirby is shaped like a friend
#198777: Jan 19th 2020 at 4:01:52 AM

[up][up]Right, sorry. I shortened it in the drafts sandbox now.

<(0_0<) <(0_0)> (>0_0)> KIRBY DANCE
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#198778: Jan 19th 2020 at 4:42:52 AM

Ah, 240+ words. Still on the long side, but since he's the Big Bad of a franchise that encompasses various media, I think that's fine. I'll just put him under Multimedia at Other Media.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#198779: Jan 19th 2020 at 5:02:33 AM

Really why are people defending Shen so? I saw the film a while ago, he does nothing out of the ordinary in general.

I can see Evolution Piccolo counting because he had attempted genocide and a lot of murder on his rapsheet. Making him pretty much as heinous as canon King Piccolo but without the moral agency issues. Plus, Evolution has the excuse of being discounted from the franchise entirely (thank god) with it being a live action film with a different story entirely.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#198781: Jan 19th 2020 at 5:15:06 AM

[up][up] The Arguments against shen sort of felt like people giving DB some sort of special treatment compared too other franchises.

If your arguing that Shen Dosent meet baseline? That's a new argument that's worth making.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#198782: Jan 19th 2020 at 5:24:12 AM

Yeah, I'm gonna have to [tdown] Master Shen.

[tup] for Harlequin though.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#198783: Jan 19th 2020 at 5:36:38 AM

[up][up]I just think if you are in a fighting anime like DB you have to be worse in general. From what I got from the effortpost and what I remember of it myself Shen doesn't seem that bad. I also think this is one of those cases where it could help if he had done something himself instead of having Tao commit all the crimes for him.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#198784: Jan 19th 2020 at 5:44:16 AM

Shen simply doesn't impress me For a show like this he seems too generic.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#198785: Jan 19th 2020 at 6:18:04 AM

[tup] Harlequin, Otis, Shen, Kyojo, Varney.

Abstain on Isaac until it can be determined if he Came Back Wrong and whether the backstory is played for sympathy.

I'll have the first draft for Yngvarr by tonight.

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#198786: Jan 19th 2020 at 7:04:52 AM

Let’s reach a Consensus on Chikatilo too. Yes to Harlequin

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#198787: Jan 19th 2020 at 7:06:29 AM

So are we just keeping FNaF as is for now?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#198788: Jan 19th 2020 at 7:13:37 AM

I'd say keep Afton for now as well. Abstaining on Shen.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#198790: Jan 19th 2020 at 7:58:46 AM

Did I miss something with FNAF ? I haven't been up to date.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#198792: Jan 19th 2020 at 8:09:08 AM

I always wondered if a show within a show could have a complete monster. My take on it is that if it is played with the proper gravity within the work, and/or the show within a show doubles as a standalone work, it may be possible to have a monster.

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#198793: Jan 19th 2020 at 8:15:34 AM

I guess. I mean one of the stoirss/scripts in writing has CM in mind, but it's this story within a story with a Framing Device akin to The Princess Bride.

In FNAF's case, looking at what was said, I agree with what was said of it being a Wes Craven's New Nightmare deal.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#198794: Jan 19th 2020 at 8:19:46 AM

[tup] to Harlequin and Issac.

[tdown] for Shen; I don't think he needs to compete with the other Dragon Ball C Ms, but I don't think he passes the baseline regardless. As for Chikatilo, I'll watch the scene before I vote on him.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#198796: Jan 19th 2020 at 9:47:29 AM

Here's one I've been unsure about for a while

What's the Work

Knives out is a 2019 murder mystery film. It follows famous Detective LeBlanc as he investigates the suicide of famos murder mystery novelist Harland Thornby.

Who is Ransom Thornby and What does he Do?

Ransom is Harland's grandson and the one behind Harland's death. Shortly before the film, Harland told Ransom that he's altering his will to give all of his stuff to his nurse Marta instead of the rest of the family. Ransom then concocts a plan to kill Harland and frame Marta so that Harland's assets are given to the family. He sneaks into Harland's study and swaps the labels on his medicine, planning for Marta to accidentally give Harland an overdose of morphine. However, Marta implicitly knew which medicine was which without looking at the labels and gave Harland the right dosage, but upon looking at the labels, thinks that she did overdose him with morphine. Harland, wanting to protect Marta and her family, creates a way for Marta to get out of the house and cover up her involvement in his death, and slits his own throat.

Ransom, upon learning that his plan hasn't gone right, sends an anonymous letter to LeBlanc, hoping that he'll uncover evidence pointing to Marta as the culprit. He skips Harland's funeral to sneak into the study and replace the labels, but is spotted by the maid Fran. Fran, not knowing exactly what happened but knowing that Harland's blood toxicity report is important, gets a copy and sends Ransom a partial copy of the report as blackmail, telling him to meet her in an abandoned building. Ransom then send the same letter to Marta, telling her to go to the building 1 hour after Fran's note did, and burns down the police record's building (nobody is hurt in the fire, though). Ransom then gives Fran a morphine overdose and plants evidence so it will look like Marta killed her, and destroys the report. However Marta, instead of fleeing the scene like Ransom expected, stays and tries to save Fran, who is hospitalized.

Marta then finds a second copy of the report that Fran had hid, LeBlanc realizes what happened. He confronts Ransom, explaining his entire plan. Marta then gets a call from the hospital and says that Fran is in stable condition. Ransom then angrily confesses to everything, threatening to use his connections to get out of the attempted murder charge and ruin Marta's life. Marta then reveals that she lied and that Fran is dead, and LeBlanc reveals that he recorded Ransom's confession. Ransom then grabs a knife from a decorative display and sabs Marta out of spite, only for it to be a retractable prop knife and he's arrested.

Heinousness?

I originally thought that he wasn't heinous enough but I think that he just makes it. The film shows that at morphine overdose is a painful way to go, with Fran desperately gasping for air and Marta describing how nasty that kind of death is. The thing that pushes him over the baseline for me is the fact that this is not just a simple Frame-Up, he's convincing Marta herself that she killed Harland, who was her best friend, it reminds me a lot of Von Karma in how cruel it is. Marta is clearly devastated by Harland's death and she was also close with the family who would probably hate Marta if they learned about her causing Harland's death, he's even laughing while they all yell at her at the will reading. I'd say this puts him over the baseline, he killed Fran in a painful way, and tried to do the same to Harland, threatened to ruin Marta's life before trying to kill her, and attempted to convince Marta and the family that she's responsible for the death of her close friend.

Mitigating Factors

Nothing really, his plan would give the rest of the family some of the inheritance but he holds all of them in open contempt, his laughing at the will reading is mostly at his family's suffering.

Conclusion

I’ll leave it up to you guys if he’s heinous enough.

Edited by papyru30 on Jan 19th 2020 at 10:47:57 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#198797: Jan 19th 2020 at 9:53:36 AM

Nope. He was discussed already

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#198799: Jan 19th 2020 at 9:55:36 AM

No to Ransom. He's the worst of the Thrombreys for certain, but I don't view him as crossing the baseline. Von Karma didn't only make Edgeworth think he killed his father. He went out of his way to use faulty evidence to get defendants guilty, innocent or not, for decades, along with attempting to manipulate Edgeworth into getting himself executed.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019

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