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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#197651: Jan 7th 2020 at 7:29:09 AM

Mir: Nice quote.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#197652: Jan 7th 2020 at 7:29:42 AM

@Erik: Unfortunately, that seems to be a bit too much on the implication scale for me to feel comfortable.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#197653: Jan 7th 2020 at 7:31:59 AM

Well uh considering the large amount of crap that happens in greens world. I think that's probably vague to count....

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#197654: Jan 7th 2020 at 7:33:44 AM

Yes to the quote. Switching to abstain on Alicia.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
ErikModi Knight Bachelor from Where ComStar can't find me. Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Knight Bachelor
#197655: Jan 7th 2020 at 7:37:55 AM

Just saying, that's the kind of stuff fragments of her personality got up to. The whole thing kind of has to be worse. Though I get why people might not want to judge her based on the entities she became.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#197656: Jan 7th 2020 at 7:45:46 AM

I'll switch to [tup] on Mengele and Desjardins. Abstain on Alicia.

Critica7 Self-Declared King of Everything from Smallville Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Self-Declared King of Everything
#197657: Jan 7th 2020 at 7:57:20 AM

For the most part, we're reaching the point where the characters being judged to be C Ms are largely from rather obscure works. But I think we need to go back and reevaluate one we might have missed. Namely, Secco from Vento Aureo.

What is the work?

The work is Vento Aureo. In case you don't have any familiarity with it, it can be summed up by the words, "magic gangsters."

Who is Secco? What has he done?

Secco is the accomplice of Torture Technician Cioccolata, an already established CM who even disgusts Diavolo (yet another CM). The man takes tremendous joy in the suffering of others, and practically lives for watching people die. He has Secco film his victims' deaths so he can watch them later, and he helps Cioccolata kill anyone who figures out how Green Day functions before it kills them. Also, he has some sort of weird BDSM thing going on with Cioccolata. Now, all of this would not necessarily make Secco a CM. While Cioccolata was responsible for some of the most horrible murders in the series, those were mostly Cioccolata's crimes. No, what makes Secco stand out to me as deserving of the status is that he never shows any disapproval of them. Diavolo shows disapproval of them. No, Secco clearly has the same Ax-Crazy blood-lust as Cioccolata. When he's shown trying to kill Bucciarati, he's clearly shown as enjoying it in a way that few other characters do. When he finally does show contempt for Cioccolata, even if he was telling the truth when he said he didn't like him anymore, it wasn't because of any of Cioccolata's crimes, but because he lost a fight. And while he specifically mentions money when he talks about why he was piggybacking off of Cioccolata...Passione is a big and profitable organization, and he could have gotten reassigned to work with someone else. Diavolo would have let him, if only to make Cioccolata less dangerous. No, he chose to stick with Cioccolata. He legitimately thought well of Cioccolata before Giorno killed him. He even said he thought he was "strong and smart."

Freudian Excuse? Other mitigating factors?

Well, he may have been tortured by Cioccolata at one point, but that quickly falls apart when you think about it even a little bit. Why would Cioccolata spare him in particular? The narration even says that Cioccolata spared him expressly because he shared his love of spreading suffering. And while he does eventually resent Cioccolata for being weak, he doesn't show the kind of resentment that would come from having a grudge against Cioccolata for torturing him. No, whatever the reason Secco is evil, it's not because of being tortured. And as for other mitigating factors, you either believe he was sincere about hating Cioccolata for losing or you believe he was in denial. If he was sincere, he's a homicidal maniac who only cares about himself, and if he was in denial, he's a homicidal maniac who was warped enough to care for Cioccolata. Either way, not a hint of good to be found there.

Verdict?

He's getting a [tup] from me.

Check out my current fanfiction project.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#197658: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:03:11 AM

Unsure if he's bad enough compared to his boss.

Wasn't Diavolo only disgusted because of Pragmatic Villainy and not due to any standards?

Critica7 Self-Declared King of Everything from Smallville Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Self-Declared King of Everything
#197659: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:09:55 AM

[up] It's ambiguous but he says "I'm not usually disgusted by people but Cioccolata is truly scum." It could be that he just doesn't appreciate the collateral damage, but that didn't stop him from using Carne and Notorious B.I.G.

Check out my current fanfiction project.
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#197660: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:32:29 AM

Secco gets a [tdown] from me. He has no independent villainy. He is just an accomplice. All he does is film the crimes and fight Bruno. He's a creep but not a CM.

Edited by TommyFresh on Jan 7th 2020 at 8:32:41 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#197661: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:40:25 AM

[up][up] If that's the case, Diavolo may have to go. If it's Pragmatic Villainy, no worries, but if it's Even Evil Has Standards? Auto-cut.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#197662: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:43:00 AM

Oh my God. That exact thing was in his ep. Could you actually use the search function..

Edited by miraculous on Jan 7th 2020 at 8:43:17 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#197663: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:44:19 AM

Yes, that's why I asked "Wasn't Diavolo only disgusted because of Pragmatic Villainy and not due to any standards?"

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#197664: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:45:19 AM

Not trying to do a callout, ACW, but if it's in the EP, read it before you ask please? Again, not everything needs to be questioned to your exact satisfaction if the question was answered before by the forum.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#197665: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:46:07 AM

I'm telling you to use it. It's one thing if this was a newly discovered fact. But this has come up two other times when I've been here.

Edited by miraculous on Jan 7th 2020 at 8:46:31 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#197666: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:49:18 AM

No, I remembered that from the EP; that's why I thought it odd when THIS ep said Diavolo was disgusted. My train of thought in my head was something like "Wait, Diavolo was disgusted? I could've sworn the EP for Diavolo said he was only against it because of Pragmatic Villainy."

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#197667: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:50:11 AM

No to Secco and Stromberg.

Abstain on Alicia.

Yes to Finn, Snake Demon, Heydrich, Desjardins and Mengele.

Got another Star Trek comic book villain, from the Marvel comics series on Voyager:

Who is Maje Jal Valek? What has he done?

So a little background on my least favorite Star Trek bad guys the Kazon, the Kazon are the poor man's Klingons, they were enslaved by other aliens called the Trabe. The Kazon overthrew their Trabe masters and took their tech. However, instead of unifying, the Kazon split off into different sects and act like petty gangs rather than a functioning society. Each sect is run by a Maje and they fight each other for domination.

With that out of the way, there is a 2 part story called Homeostasis, where the Kazon sect Oglamar stole a powerful new weapon, a bioweapon. Their leader is Maje Jal Valek (he is just called the Maje in the comic, Alpha Memory says his name is Jal Valek and he has had some nonspeaking appearances in the show, where he did not do much). Anyway, Valek has the bioweapon fired at a peaceful planet Praja, killing the planet's ecosystem. Most of the plants are dead, most of the animals have starved to death and the local population is slowly dying as well, not being to last much longer, with them having to abandon their cities and live in caves to escape the bioweapon. Valek did this so he can strip mine the planet for all its resources.

Voyager arrives at Praja to get more fuel and see it is a wasteland. The Kazon mining operations are not currently active (I guess these Kazon are just kinda lazy), but go to the planet when they find out Voyager is on the planet, messing with their mining equipment. Valek also seems to like punching his crew members for no good reason. Valek intended to destroy Voyager to demonstrate superiority over the other sects. Voyager manages to defeat Valek's ships and deliver a cure that restores the planet's ecosystem, forcing Valek to flee and go back to non-speaking roles on the show.

Is he heinous by the standards of the work?

I think so, a Kazon sect has inferior tech, manpower, and resources to a major civilization like say the Romulan Empire (they do not have transporter tech, for example), but Valek managed to almost destroy the population of a planet and letting them die slowly seems extra sadistic. Also, some of the population had to have died after their whole ecosystem was destroyed, even if Voyager got rid of the bioweapon's effects, there will still be a high death toll from using it. He may only be a threat due to stolen tech, but that does let him punch above his weight class and these comics are in line with the tone of the show, so the heinous standard is not crazy here.

Any Freudian Excuse or other redeeming qualities?

Nah, Valek mistreats his men and the Kazon back story of enslavement does not justify these war crimes, he is purely driven by greed.

Final Verdict?

Keep him.

Edited by Overlord on Jan 7th 2020 at 8:55:43 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#197668: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:50:15 AM

ACW, the new EP is not challenging Diavolo. It doesn't need to be a subject now.

Yes to Valek btw

Edited by Lightysnake on Jan 7th 2020 at 8:52:51 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#197669: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:51:58 AM

[tup]Valek

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#197671: Jan 7th 2020 at 8:57:38 AM

Eh, either way, I vote [tdown] Secco.

Sure to Valek though.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#197672: Jan 7th 2020 at 9:03:23 AM

[tdown] Secco.

[tup] Valek.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#197674: Jan 7th 2020 at 9:19:12 AM

[tup]Valek.

Why so serious?
chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#197675: Jan 7th 2020 at 9:23:15 AM

Found another unapproved Complete Monster pothole, this time on Knights of the Old Republic. I cut the pothole and linked to the thread, but anybody interested can do an EP if they want.


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