During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Desjardins.
I found something interesting on youtube, and thought I'd share it with the thread.
!What is the work?
"Now Then
" is a song by John Spowage about Jimmy Savile, and a tribute to "those who survived him or men like him."
The lyrics are as follows:
[[strike: I'll sing you a story about our friend Jim; How he fell from good grace into the pit he now lies in; When I was a boy he was always on telly; Trying to fix it for kids like you and me; I sent him a letter, can't remember what I asked for; It doesn't matter anyway he never replied; And on top of the pops with his flashy gold jewelry; Surrounded by girls like moths to a flame; Everybody loves a charity fundraiser (yes they do); Most I thought you were the bees knees at the height of your fame; Away from the cameras you used your celebrity;As a shield to hide behind while you broke all our trust; And all of the girls you violated; They waited and waited and waited and waited; They've carried the pain and they've kept it inside; Too scared to speak out until you had died; So how's about that, you dirty old fucker; Your good reputation lies in the gutter; But at least all the girls you cruelly abused Can finally stand up and speak out the truth (x3)]]
!Who is Jimmy Savile and what has he done?
Jimmy Savile had abused his position as a celebrity and a philanthropist to sexually assault girls for years. Jimmy's abuse had traumatized the survivors to the point that they had been afraid to speak out against him until he had died.
! Heinousness?
While the abuse is not described in detail, nor is there a tally of survivors, the scope of his abuse is not lost in the song. The negative effect he has had on the survivors of his abuse is described in enough detail that offscreen villainy is not a concern. Not to mention, his lust is his motive.
! Mitigating Factors?
I read somewhere in this thread that songs about real people and their crimes were considered like a docudrama in the sense that it leaves out any details not important to the narrative.
There are no other concerns that I can think of. It's not pointlessly grimdark, and it's not a comedy.
!Verdict?
I feel that this version of Savile's cruelty is explicit enough that he is at least worthy of consideration by the thread.
I have reconsidered my effortpost and concluded it was not worth writing.
In any case, John's music is worth listening to.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Jan 6th 2020 at 11:47:58 AM
The song not fully making Savile's actions explicit works against the song interpretation qualifying at least as far as I see it. It also sounds more akin to a "Reason You Suck" song.
Recently watched the 2019 A Christmas Carol miniseries adaptation.
No keepers, but not for the reason you'd probably think: The heinous standard is through the roof!
Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation hereJust a question: Do I have to announce here that I'm adding someone to my To-Do list?
"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"It is preferred, yes.
Oh, and since Mir requested some aid:
- Stalking Jack Th Ripper: HH Holmes himself is a monstrous serial killer who constructed a murder hotel so he could murder and torture innocents at his leisure, racking up a body count in the triple digits. Later becoming Jack the Ripper, letting a patsy die and take the blame for it. Continuing a murder spree in multiple areas, Holmes tries to corrupt the heroine into being a murderer like him, gloating that he fully embraces his inner darkness and the devil within.
![]()
In that case, I might add Israphel from Yogscast Minecraft Series to my to-do list. He sounds bad enough and using the search function,discussion on him wasn't conclusive
Last one for Deathstalker. This one was discussed and cut earlier, I gather, due to lack of good arguments for keeping. I'm least certain about this one, but I'll give it the old college try.
What's the work?
Deathstalker, a Space Opera novel series by Simon R. Green, soft as warm butter, and absolutely not to be confused with the low-budget 80s Corman fantasy flicks.
It's the far, far future, and humanity has spread across the stars and founded a great Empire, ruled from the homeworld of Logres (formerly Golgotha, implied to be Earth, but renamed so many times over however long that no one remembers what it was originally called anymore). The King and Queen are figureheads of a constitutional monarchy, the King serving as Speaker for the House of Parliament, where the AIs of Shub, clones, espers, and aliens all have a voice. It is a Golden Age, though there are those who want to piss all over it. They are opposed by the Paragons, the King's Justice, the most skilled and capable warriors in the Empire, enforcers of law and order, guardians of the innocent. Think Star Wars meets The French Revolution on steroids and laughing gas with a dash of Lovecraftian horror, and you've got the basic idea (and no, that combination should not work, but it does).
Who is Alicia VomAcht Deathstalker? What did she do?
Alicia VomAcht Deathstalker was an esper, one of the first, and was among those who first went to Haden, discovered and walked the Madness Maze. Those scientists who survived went on to become the Hadenmen, once the official Enemies of Humanity until the Rogue AIs of Shub earned the title. But Alicia became something else, the first uber-esper, able to form a gestalt consciousness with other espers, but dominated by her will, making their power her own, enhancing her own abilities. She gathered a following of espers, drove them mad, and took them through the Maze. She intended to have a core gestalt of uber-espers like her, dominated by her will, and thus the power to dominate all others. Whether she thought driving them mad first would help them survive the Maze or make them easier to control afterwards, who knows. But something went wrong. The vast majority of the espers died, including seemingly Alicia herself, and only monsters came out, the uber-espers who lead the modern Esper Liberation Force.
But Alicia didn't die, and none of the espers who walked the Maze with her survived. Instead, Alicia fought the changes the Maze tried to work on her, the effort shattering her into a Literal Split Personality. She became the five uber-espers, as well as the Mater Mundi, the force in the collective unconscious of all espers that guided and bent them toward her will until she was destroyed by Diana Vertue. The five uber-espers continued on, eventually forming the Esper Liberation Force and glorying in the agony and defilement they and their followers cause.
Alicia was revived, or perhaps reborn, when the combined efforts of Diana Vertue and the oversoul (the cooperative gestalt consciousness of the espers) to destroy the uber-espers went horribly right. Alicia immediately moved to assert her control over all espers, and eventually all humanity, working towards her long-ago goal of a single gestalt consciousness ruled by her, and the unlimited power it would grant her.
She didn't get very far. Between Diana Vertue and the oversoul, Carrion and the Ashrai, and Maze-adjusted Lewis Deathstalker, Jesamine Flowers, Brett Random, and Rose Constantine, even Alicia's Maze-enhanced esper powers were no match. She did try to possess Captain John Silence, last of the great heroes from days of the Rebellion, who took his own life rather than give Alicia access to his Maze abilities.
Alicia retreated, seeking a more subtle avenue to assert her control. She happened upon Joy, an Ecstatic, people who had their brains surgically altered so they exist in a state of perpetual orgasm, giving them bizarre insight and truly unsettling smiles. Alicia dived into Joy's mind, only to find it made no sense and there was no way out. Utterly trapped, Alicia could do nothing but scream. Carrion psychically burned her body, just to be safe, and Joy went back to live with the espers, who would ensure Alicia couldn't escape and died with him.
Heinousness?
Alicia is Joruus C'Baoth turned Up To Eleven. Her end goal is to achieve total mental domination over the human race, everyone existing only as a psychically-dominated part of her. And given what she got up to when she was split into the Mater Mundi and uber-espers, that's an exceptionally unpleasant concept. Rape, torture, murder, cannibalism. . . these are but mid-afternoon Triscuits for the ELFs, a light snack of emotions to sustain them. Given time (and Maze people can certainly be functionally immortal if they choose) what else would Alicia come up with? Valentine Wolfe may have boasted about becoming the Devil, but Alicia is an insane god who wants to devour her children.
Each of the six uber-espers she was split into could be a Complete Monster in their own right, and she's the source of all of them.
Mitigating Qualities?
All that said, Alicia herself has little page time and doesn't actually do much. She tries to get Silence to kill Diana and a few others, but only succeeds in getting him to kill himself. Her psychic battles with the oversoul and Carrion are a stalemate, turning to a Curb-Stomp Battle against her as soon as Lewis Deathstalker shows up. Then she tries to possess Joy, and. . . yeah, that worked really well.
But I don't feel her time as the uber-espers and Mater Mundi should be discounted. In her own words:
- I was spread far and wide by the Maze, torn apart into grotesque subpersonalities, crude representatives of my various needs and functions, but I always had an agenda.
That agenda, of course, being literally It's All About Me. Being the psychic ruler of mentally-dominated humanity, and the Mater Mundi, and later the uber-espers, worked tirelessly towards that end.
I wouldn't say the "grotesque subpersonalities" are Made of Evil. . . or if they are, only because they are Made Of Alicia and she's just that evil. She didn't strictly have control over them, and had been trying to put herself back together, but couldn't until Diana and the oversoul helpfully stepped in. But they're still her at a fundamental level, working towards her goals in apparently the way she would have. As the narration describes why she's outmatched by Lewis:
- Because all Alicia had was self-interest and ambition and hate.
Though, this isn't quite spelled out. Simon R. Green went to great lengths to obfuscate the true nature of the uber-espers and Mater Mundi, including outright lying in earlier passages regarding them where there was no valid reason to present misinformation, including passages where the uber-espers are functionally POV characters. As such, it's a valid interpretation that even they didn't really know why they were doing what they were doing. But it's also valid to believe that it was all smokescreen for The Reveal, and the uber-espers, however distantly, were still aware of and working towards Alicia's grand design.
Conclusion?
Like I said, I'm not entirely certain this one will go over. Her plans are certainly horrific beyond anything else in the series, but the character herself has very little time, and while she makes quite an impression (largely due to the buildup of the uber-espers in the last three books, and the Mater Mundi in the first five), she doesn't really accomplish anything. Whether the actions of the uber-espers count or not is very YMMV. However, she is the series' Greater-Scope Villain, an Outside-Context Problem whose presence is felt from the very first book. The consequences of her very existence are far-reaching and terrifying.
Hmm . Edit: Lighty actually has a good point their. Greens world is pretty fucked up.....
to Alicia
- Larry Banks aka Coach Eric Blair was a perverted pornographer who drugged and forced women into taking part in sexually exploitive pictures or films against their wills who escaped to Hawaii and became a roller skate coach. Starting his enterprise up again and forcing his team to take part, he eventually drugs and offs a member who finds out the truth before later breaking the wrist and trying to murder another team member when he suspects she might be onto him.
- Blackwood house : In life, Victor Barlow was a spiritualist who created a house to be a conduit to the afterlife and forced a mentally ill man named Robert Kant to kill him in a bid for ultimate power. Possessing Kant, Victor forces him to mmurder several children before Kant kills himself to get away from him. From then on, Victor begins to posses the inhabitants of his house over the next centuary and forces them to kill their families, with them aware as he does this. When his descendant Mara arrives in the house, Victor posses her fiance and tries to kill her too simply for the hell of it.
I'll add these to the drafts. Ibrahim is already their.
Edited by miraculous on Jan 7th 2020 at 7:23:24 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."What about this one for the quotes page
H.H Holmes: Oh, I’ve found the method of killing isn’t what excites me. It’s death. Whether I strangle someone or flay them open, exposing their innermost secrets, or watch as they slowly asphyxiate behind a closed door, it’s their pain, their inability to conquer death, that thrills me.
@ Lightysnake: Well, it's never explained what her mental domination would entail. . . but if it's anything like what the ELFs were doing when she was still sundered, it involves things like making the entire audience of the Arena, men, women and children, rape, torture, murder, and eat each other. While they're aware of what they're doing, but can't stop. Because that creates the emotions the uber-espers think are yummiest.

Yes to Desjardins.