During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Other Mother was discussed, yes. She was excluded because of Offscreen Villainy concerns, plus the issue that her actions are fairly average for works of Coraline's ilk.
edited 3rd Dec '13 11:05:24 PM by SeptimusHeap
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
on Bertram. The only one played seriously was Jeff, and we took him down (reluctantly in my case) because his actions as a whole weren't heinous enough. Knight of Cerebus yes, Complete Monster no.
Alright, I made slight tweaks to Transformers. Under 6 hours until locking.
I will be implementing the changes I proposed
on the Transformers page if there are no objections.
I brought up a possible disqualification for Silas here
linked is my post as well as Lightysnake's counter-argument. I personally don't know whether to cut or keep.
edited 4th Dec '13 3:22:06 PM by DrPsyche
@19673: Good write-ups for film!Bullseye and The Doctor.
@19677: Those Doctor Who write-ups all look good to me.
@19680: I'd also be good with getting rid of that Cold Blood entry.
@19681: Flatline rewrite looks good.
@19682: Good write-ups but in Prince Sincline's entry the first letter of the last sentence needs capitalization.
@19685: Based on what others have said, the Governor from the Live Action TV version sounds like too... "human" to count. I really doubt he'll ever qualify.
@19699: Excellent write-ups for The Chathrand Voyages examples.
@19705: Reading it over I'd say yes to Isla Yura and no to Bernard Nightray for failing the heinous standard.
@19709: Vote yes on Asuka Lan from Devilman Lady.
@19716: Yes cut Lothos, he doesn't count... like, at all.
@19727: Good Fringe rewrites.
@19730: Going to vote against Bertram. Really the only things I can remember that show ever tried to pull off for drama was the Domestic Abuse episode and Brian's death... and even then the show couldn't play either of those completely seriously.
@19744: I'd say, if it's said Silas's fusion with Breakdown's corpse affects Silas's decision-making ability, that would be the cut off point for when we can judge the character's moral agency. In this case, I'm not sure Dying as Yourself is enough for an Alas, Poor Villain. He doesn't get sympathy because of anything sympathetic about as him as a person, but because of all the pain he's had to endure. So, personally if I were to vote to disqualify him, I'd need to know if he showed any redeeming qualities prior to fusing with Breakdown's corpse?
Also, anyone else have any thoughts on my Marlo Stanfield rewrite here?
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Yeah, it wasn't said that the combination affected his mind, the promotion blurb states that Silas's decision was uncharacteristic, and his desire to find and serve under Megatron clashes with his previous goal of stripping the "Living Machines" for their technology and installing a New World Order. Whether or not his mind was affected I think may be speculation.
EDIT: Made the cuts, and I also cut out Overlord's mention in Ultra Magnus's description, it wasn't necessary, and I didn't know that at the time I wrote the example.
edited 4th Dec '13 6:23:03 PM by DrPsyche
Say, there's this character I wanted to discuss, again from Cold Case. I'm not really pushing for him to be on the list, but I thought I'd propose him as a sort of "test case" to see if characters such as this are too minor to make the list.
This character is an unnamed corrupt immigration officer who appears in one scene in the episode "Who's Your Daddy?" The story centers around two immigrant couples from Cambodia, one with a child and one without; they fled because there'd recently been a regime-change in their country (I'm not really up on my Cambodian history so I'm not sure when this would've been) and they were distant relatives of the royal family, the new government having ordered all royals purged.
Anyway, this guy busts the two couples and a bunch of other illegal immigrants and offers the couple with a child (who are the episode's main victims) a deal: he'll give them the other, legal couple's green cards in exchange for a bribe. The father refuses to send the other couple to their deaths, until the officer, wearing the smuggest, most shit-eating grin imaginable, says "They kill kids too, don't they?" The father takes the bribe, and the legal couple are sent back and immediately executed.
So, pros: He's got no redeeming qualities, abuses his position and clearly enjoys it, and is willing to put kids' lives on the line to make a quick buck. I actually found him more despicable than the real killer, and for reference the killer is the couple's creepy boss with a seriously squicky Asian fetish who murders them when the wife refuses to service him.
Cons: ...the guy's probably onscreen less than a minute, has no name, isn't the killer, and indeed never directly kills anyone. So, what do you all think?
edited 4th Dec '13 6:25:02 PM by HamburgerTime
I just came across the Monster page for Tenjho Tenge, and it's not that good:
- Ryuuzaki: Assaulted Chiaki (and manages to rape her in the manga), beat the shit out of Nagi and Bob, called Maya to mock her and warn her about the punishment the boys would be receiving, and destroyed Bob's bike for the lulz. When Maya beat him up in retaliation for what he did to them, and when Bob and Souichiro pay him a visit later at the hospital and deliver their own payback, the fans were more than pleased.
- Fu Chien: Beats and humiliates Maya to force Shin into a berserker state. After the resulting fight, where he is nearly killed by Shin, he vows to take revenge by torturing, raping, and then killing Maya to hurt Shin before killing him. Shin pays him a visit while he is in the hospital and rips his face off and his eyes out, apparently killing him. He did die, but was then revived by the next monster in line...
- Souhaku: His treatment of his ex-wife Makiko Natsume and his son Soichiro Nagi more than qualify him as such. He only saw Makiko as a test subject for his experiments, and when he deemed her too weak to "control her own dragon", he transferred all the powers she had absorbed from the 12 Founding Families into her left eye, which he then removed and had transplanted into Tetsuhito. When she tried to follow Sohaku after he abandoned her, he cut off her left arm. And now he wants The Hero Soichiro (his own child) to be powered up with Red Feather powers so that he can eventually possess his body. And he won't stop at anything to get his purpose.
- Jushi Mataza Tsumuji: While there's no excuse for the utterly horrible treatment he and his mother got from the Tsumuji clan, the shit that Mataza pulls as the local Torture Technician is just...eeeeeugh.
I'll go down the list from the top:
- Ryuuzaki is a despicable douche, but he's not the only rapist, he's not the only one to perform brutal beatdowns, and he's not the only one to gloat. He's unrepentant, but a smallfry. I say Cut.
- Fu Chien, much like Ryuuzaki, is an unrepentant scumbag, but not much worse than other villains. He was even grateful to an enemy who saved his life, and though he didn't come close to redemption, he felt gratitude towards said enemy and would no longer fight him. I think he's out.
- Souhaku is the only one who really works. As far as I remember, he has no Freudian Excuse, and he just wants overwhelming power. As the example states, he sees his own family as test subjects. He's a sociopath who places no value on human life and who has been using, manipulating, and killing people, innocent or otherwise, for hundreds of years. The closest he gets to redemption is realizing that he has no chance of succeeding and quietly admitting defeat. I say keep, though the example could use some rewriting.
- Mataza was badly abused by his own clan before falling into Souhaku's hands. The stuff he pulls off is definitely disgusting, and I have no idea why he pulled a Heel–Face Turn, but he definitely has a freudian excuse (revenge), and thanks to the way Souhaku does things, it's hard to say for certain if Mataza even has any moral capacity left. Oh yeah, the very fact that he's a good guy by the end automatically disqualifies him, right? Out.
I also noticed the example for Angelika Einstürzen from Dogs: Bullets & Carnage a few days ago. While I'd agree on any day that she's a monster, the example is rather poorly written and leaves out a good deal of her evil. Can I improve it?
edited 5th Dec '13 7:21:25 AM by Erivale
On Lothos, due to what the entry says about the novelization, I'm thinking maybe he could have been one in Joss Whedon's original vision, but the movie rather notoriously didn't follow that, so what we see in the film is a standard evil vampire. So
.
Have we reached a decision on Yuga? From what I hear, I think he might possibly be a contender for being up there with Majora. I mean, he hijacks Ganon rather than the other way around. And he's never Ganon's pawn: he does it all willingly. All to destroy the world and then remake it into a world that's best fit for him and him alone to thrive in.
@Austin DR: Family Guy has no Complete Monster. Can we please all agree to this?
edited 5th Dec '13 10:47:42 AM by ANewMan
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Souhaku's evil is all onscreen. It does happen in a flashback, but said flashback is almost, if not more than, two volumes long. We never see the complete extent of his evil, but we do see a good deal of it, the narrative makes it clear that there's more that we don't see and that he's making more all the time, and he cops to it almost proudly.
The thing about tearing somebody's throat out, for any reason, is that it's just murder. Not all that heinous, especially for a vampire movie. Furthermore, she brought up god. He's a vampire, and it sent him into a berserk rage. Just that extra scene doesn't make him a CM.
edited 5th Dec '13 5:49:00 PM by Erivale
Yuga (The Legend of Zelda: A Link Between Worlds) is someone that could fit, but he never goes beyond this evil guy for me. Everything he does is standard villain stuff. I probably won't oppose him, but he's not a surefire candidate for me either.
Yuga...I have to vote yea as I can't think of any reason to say no.
As a sidenote, here's a guy we didn't discuss, but who's a real keeper. He just needs a few tweaks and to remove the spoilers.
- Severin from Princess Resurrection. This cowardly Smug Snake is the opponent against whom Hime (normally a calm, collected Lady of War) came the closest to losing her cool, and with good reason: before the series even began, Severin used his necromantic powers to raise an army of zombies and sent them to kill Hime, which caused her to lose all of her blood warriors - something which she still considers her greatest failure. Then, he does it again in Volume 5, infecting a whole city with a zombie plague and causing hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent victims - once again, just to kill Hime. Unlike Hime, who genuinely cares about her blood warriors despite her outwardly cold demeanor, Severin abuses and humiliates his servants every chance he gets. And just to top it off, he's the reason Hime hates being called by her actual name of Lilian: that's the name Severin gave to his cat, whom he tortured to death For the Evulz - which implies that he wanted to do the same to Hime as well. Luckily, he gets a very satisfying Karmic Death when Hime outgambits him and slits his throat with his own sword.
Now, to describe the series...a boy named Hiro is killed in a car accident, but is revived by a mysterious and beautiful young woman who calls herself 'Hime.' Hiro learns he's now undead, awakened by her blood and swears himself to her service. Every generation, the children of the monster royal family have a battle royale where they have to fight until only one remains to take the throne. However, just about anything goes in the fights. Fighters are encouraged to gather blood warriors, make alliances and be very clever. However, you have to keep yourself hidden and you can't break the laws. Of Hime's siblings, Severin is one of the younger ones and an utter sadist and despite his early start in the series, Severin has the highest bodycount. he unleashed a zombie plague that destroyed tons of casualties, seen in flashback. Hime's previous blood warriors died defending her. He does it again later- this is incredibly taboo.
the other siblings inclue Hime's Annoying Younger Sibling Sherwood who never does anything evil and allies with Hime early on, her elder brother Emile who's a truly noble man, Gilliam who's ruthless but clearly respects his comrades and opponents. Of the lot, there are two who are actually 'evil', Silvia and Duken.
Silvia is Hime's eldest sister and is an incredibly ruthless woman who's a bit of an egomaniac. she judges her servants based solely on how useful they are and doesn't mind cheating to win. Duken, the eldest of the family, is way less concerned with collateral damage and is fond of blackmailing people to betray Hime by using their loved ones as collateral and hostages. However, neither count. Silvia limits her plans to targeting her siblings and despite how bad she can be, Sherwood later notes the only reason she's survived the fights is her enemy siblings were all just too noble and honorable to straight up murder her.
Severin is noticeably absent from that reminiscing. Duken also doesn't count as it's revealed he's just a robot corpse and a front for an unexpected player in the game. When Silvia and said brother lose the war and are stripped of their powers, they also kind of accept it and just live peacefully.
So, all in all, Severin only appears in a few chapters but he leaves a noticeable mark in them. He has the highest bodycount an of all the villains and attempts even further ones (and with its Monster of the Week format, there's a lot) and he's been fixated on killing his sister since she was disturbingly young. He's a Bad Boss to creepy levels (Silvia might judge her servants on how useful they are, but Severin murdered his own servants and abuses them). He's an easy pass. While he also didn't take any chance to hunt down Sherwood, it's more because he's obsessed with Hime herself.
edited 5th Dec '13 12:21:00 PM by Lightysnake
Any other comments on the corrupt immigration cop
? His role kind of reminds me of Glenn Hill from Criminal Minds in that he's an extremely minor villain (probably the most minor character who could really be called a villain in the show's history, in fact) who's nevertheless the lynchpin for everything bad that happens.

Can I add the following to Sandbox.Anime And Manga Monsters?