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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Sircray Since: Apr, 2018
#197053: Jan 2nd 2020 at 6:35:31 PM

"Smiley" Tallarico from CSI: Dominos #1-5 (2004) by Kris Oprisko (writer) and Gabriel Rodriguez (artist)

The Comic Book: Back in the early to mid-2000s, various CSI comic books, most of them focused on the Las Vegas team consisting of Gil Grissom, Catherine Willows, Warrick Brown, Sara Sidle, Greg Sanders, Doc Robbins, and Jim Brass, were published by IDW.

Who They Are: An infamous mob-affiliate who is at one point described as having no soul, Smiley was poached from the East Coast by the Cavellinis, a crime family that is based in Las Vegas. Vincent Brescia, the Don of the Zazzeras—the main rivals to the Cavellinis—aware of Smiley's fearsome reputation, and afraid that Smiley's presence in the city could quickly cause the balance of power to shift in the Cavellinis' favor, immediately ordered a risky hit on Smiley, to be done by a pair of enforcers named Silvio Pagnaccio and Paulie Gaglione. The two ambushed Smiley while he was meeting with a low-level Cavellini stooge named Joseph "Bambino" Bucca, and while Joseph was killed, Smiley survived (his only major injury being to the hip) and, after patching himself up, set off on a Roaring Rampage of Revenge.

What They Do: Tracking down Paulie and Silvio, Smiley forces them drive to an abandoned shack on the outskirts of the Las Vegas Strip. Tying the two men up, Smiley gets them to tell him about who ordered him whacked, and afterward forces Paulie to watch as he brutally tortures (using, among other things, a burning piece of metal) Silvio. Smiley proceeds to unflinchingly burn his own fingerprints off in front of his two captives while ranting about how "this town was gonna learn a lesson" before forcing Paulie to keep tabs on Brescia for him, telling him that if he does a good job, he will release him and Silvio.

Paulie informs Smiley that Brescia, in fear for his life due to being aware that Smiley survived the assassination attempt, is having his face altered at a plastic surgery clinic called Desert Hearts. Smiley declares that "the circle's widened" and has Paulie steal a telephone directory from the clinic, having decided that murdering Brescia is not enough, he is also going to take his rage out on the entire city by targeting absolutely everyone who has recently met or had any kind of contact at all (no matter how minor) with Brescia. Smiley meets up with and gets the list from Paulie, who he then turns on, bashing his head in and burying him alive at a construction site with what is left of Silvio, who was killed by being dismembered alive by Smiley.

Smiley proceeds to garrote Brescia. Next, he shoots Thomas Han, a man who had worked at Desert Hearts, in the face on the outskirts of the Strip. He then shoots Astrid Drue, a medical assistant who had also been employed at Desert Hearts, in the back of the head in the Strip. Afterward, Smiley breaks into the home of Mark Kellits, a Desert Hearts plastic surgeon, who he bludgeons with a bottle before subjecting him to a Neck Snap. As Smiley is rampaging through the city, the links between the seemingly random murders are unearthed by the CSIs, and Smiley's identity and motives are revealed by Paulie, who had miraculously survived being left for dead by Smiley.

The CSIs get a copy of the call directory that is being used as a hit list by Smiley. The police manage to drive Smiley away from his next target, Parvi Silvati, which only enrages him and causes him to seek out someone else, a man named Vernon Pershay. The authorities had men stationed at Pershay's house, too, and they are able to subdue Smiley as he screams, "I'll rip your hearts out!" As Smiley is dragged off, he tells CSI Gil Grissom (who had just informed him that he is going away for a long time) that, "You just made the list!"

Heinousness: He was a complete psychopath, perfectly fine with torturing (even after getting the information that he wanted) and then killing someone by taking them apart piece by piece, and was feared even by other criminals, from the lowliest street thugs to ostensibly untouchable Dons. What set him apart, though, was his decision to go above and beyond and full scorched Earth during his Roaring Rampage of Revenge. Getting back at the people who did him wrong was not enough, he wanted to terrorize the entire city and show everyone that he is not a man to be messed with by tracking down and eliminating every single random innocent person who may or may not have somehow interacted with Brescia. As Grissom put it, Smiley was less a man and more "a machine" who "sees human beings as nothing more than dominos, to be knocked over one by one."

In terms of in-universe vileness, nearly all of the other comics involved one or two-off financial (a counterfeiter trying to rub out his two partners, for example) or crime of passion murders (a teenager killing his new stepmother, a couple killing each other's respective illicit lovers, a play director killing the actress who tried to blackmail him after they slept together, etc.) The only other perp who stuck out in terms of evilness was the Jack the Ripper copycat from CSI: Serial who gruesomely murdered four women and tried to frame his friend for it, but he had something of a Freudian Excuse (one of the victims possibly knowingly gave him HIV, and was possibly the only one who he really cared about) and, even though he cheated on his wife, he still seemed to love and care about her, with Grisson at one point musing that she was, "The one woman on the planet he hadn't come to despise..."

Mitigating Factors: He was already a beastly criminal before the failed attempt on his life, so, no, not really.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#197054: Jan 2nd 2020 at 6:40:54 PM

[tup] to Julian. And sincere Condolences Xie.

I agree that rewrites are necessary, but Do the V for Vendetta guys need to be merged? They have enough stuff to make them distinct IMO.

Sutler has the death/Experimentation Camps(Wich Creedy wasn't responsible for as the merged entry implies, from what I recall Creedy wasn't necessarily Sutlers right hand man, just the nastiest/most active part of Sutlers inner circle) on top of being the guy in charge of Norsefire itself, and having people killed for making fun of him.

Creedy is the dude who came up with the Three Water incident, as well as the stuff his Fingermen do and betraying the Party.

Also a minor issue with the merged entry is Sutler isn't indicated to be a Sadist like Creedy, They have a bit of a Hargrove\Felix Xander Rice/Donald pierce thing. Where the minion is more Active and has more of a personal flare.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#197056: Jan 2nd 2020 at 6:46:53 PM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#197058: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:14:56 PM

[up][up]Calm down there mate. Nothing on this thread or TV Tropes in general is serious enough to get so moody over.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#197059: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:18:31 PM

Umm.....I didn't say I never said I was the be all end all decider of things. I just said I disagreed with the idea and provided my arguments for that. I don't think merging them is stupid and can see the logic behind it, there's..no need to be overly hostile.

The reason I bring up the little things in the entry is it seems too associate deeds or traits of one onto both of them. Like saying They have People sent to camps when it's just Sutler that's doing that. And saying that they're sadistic when that only applies to Creedy

Edited by Kylotrope on Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:19:14 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#197060: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:24:26 PM

Everyone off their high horses before you go too far on them, please. The Creedy/Sutler writeup benefits from a merger as their crimes can be neatly encapsulated together in a single writeup and we don't need to be focusing on trivial details. Nobody needs to be getting nasty and nobody needs to be making another big debate over a non-issue.

Edited by Scraggle on Jan 2nd 2020 at 8:29:14 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#197061: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:25:40 PM

[tup] Smiley.

Also, I generally believe that if they are separately guilty of different crimes, albeit with some overlap, they are generally worthy of separate entries. That said, I won't lose sleep over a combined entry in this case.

[nja][up] You mean Sutler/Creedy, right?

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jan 2nd 2020 at 10:29:44 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#197062: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:26:27 PM

Okay, so...my last Hellblazer one...possibly John's arch-nemesis: Nergal.

Who is Nergal?

His origin has differed...Ennis made him a child predator who killed many kids before being burnt alive, whereupon he was sent to hell...Nergal climbed the ranks and eventually became one of the strongest demons in all hell, with a massive territory, along wiht a demonic family. A horrifically abusive father to his daughter Rosacarnis, Nergal even forced her to kill the one servant who was kind to her, and treated her horribly to make her a monster herself.

Nergal haunts humanity with plagues, destruction, etc...his body count is enormous there, with countless atrocities visited upon the world or inspired by him, with designs to bring hell on earth. Nergal was the demon summoned at Newcastle, killing several people there and dragging a little girl named Astra to hell, while driving John insane for kicks...

Later returning in an effort to bring an antichrist, Nergal created 'The Damnation Army,' brainwashing and corrupting tons of people, forcing them into sexual acts and setting them against a faction aiming to craft a new messiah...roping in John by threatening to partake of his favorite snacks, human infants in the hospital...he had John given a transfusion of his own demon blood, and had him sleep with the woman who was to bear the messiah, tainting her, while the angel summoned to impregnate her went mad with fury and slaughtered them all...John managed to outplay Nergal, who tortured and slaughtered his followers before being seemingly destroyed when John sent him to face the angels.

Later returning from death,, Nergal was disposed of by the First of the Fallen but managed to survive, and hid out when his daughter and brother took over his former domains...when Rosacarnis seduced John and had demonic children with him, Nergal manipulated John to try to eliminate his family, sneaking back into hell, with intent of hijacking the mass slaughter John's kids were causing...things didn't go according to plan and the First wiped out all of them, save for Nergal's granddaughter Maria...at the end, though?

When he learned John was getting married, Nergal decided to destroy his happiness, trying to get an exiled succubus named Gloria to seduce and rape him...when Gloria failed and refused to try again for morals? Nergal murdered her and later stormed the wedding to kill John and everyone there...except John used his demon duplicate as bait, and ambushed Nergal, tearing out his spine and finishing him for good.

Heinousness?

Nergal is the original bad boy...one of the worst demons, Nergal has plague, atrocities going back in legion, attempted hell on earth, abusive parents, eating babies...you name it, he's done it, including taking Astra to hell...yeah, no question Nergal is among the worst of the worst.

Mitigating qualities?

Nope. Nergal has no care for his family, trying to get John to wipe them out, and when his one loyal servant offers to kill himself for a failure, Nergal fully admits "I might love to see that, but I still have a use for you." No, nothing good to Nergal here.

Conclusion?

And a yes for the original Hellblazer big bad.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#197063: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:26:55 PM

[tup] Julian

[tup] Smiley

[tup] Nergal

I agree with Kylo IMO

Edited by KazuyaProta on Jan 2nd 2020 at 10:29:12 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#197064: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:27:05 PM

[tup] to Nergal.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:29:26 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#197065: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:28:57 PM

[tup] Nergal.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#197068: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:37:40 PM

[tup] Julian.

[tup] Smiley.

[tup] Nergal.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#197070: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:40:39 PM

And one more for tonight!

What's the work?

Remember Cal of Cthulhu? Well, Chaosium published a brand new type of setting for it. I give you Pulp Cthulhu! Taking away the focus on horror and vulnerability, Pulp Cthulhu is all about action and adventure, with tougher heroes who can face the nightmares and fight back with all they've got...this EP will come from the module The Two-Headed Serpent.

This centers on the Serpent-Men...see, the heroes are ostensible agents for the good guy organization Caduceus...but there's a secret...the founder of Caduceus was murdered and replaced by a Serpent Man, as well as his daughter....the issue is, though...there's a power struggle. The followers of the Serpent God Yig, and a splinter faction or two to the gods Tsathoggua and Ghanatothoa...you're caught in the center of things, and the plans each faction have are horrible. The big bad for the Yig side? Joshua Meadham.

Who is Joshua Meadham?

The real Joshua Meadham is long dead, murdered and replaced by the Serpent Man bearing his name, true name Ssulithan. Using Caduceus's resources, before being betrayed by his 'daughter' Rose for the worship of Tsathoggua, 'Joshua' carries on with charitable works and pharmaceuticals...except it experiments horrifically on countless innocents, twisting them, breaking their minds and murdering them, leaving them disfigured and broken, for the ultimate plan, while also trying to create a clone of the treacherous Rose

Now, Joshua/Ssulithan is workign towards crafting a Serpent People Empire, but humanity is in the way...the solution he has? He's working on a virus...and to bait the heroes, he sends them after Rose's faction, as well as the third faction which plans to turn all humans into serpent men...

Ssulithan/Joshua also plans out terrorist attacks, keeping Caduceus's resources dedicated where it over the world and forcing the PC's to keep on their toes, with bombs and virus attacks that could wipe out thousands or tens of thousands, while plotting to gain access to Lemuria and summon Yig's full power...the virus?

The Serpent people will rise, Ssulithan will rule, and he plans to set the heroes to murder his rivals and 'daughter.'...now, the module diverges a bit: at one point, the heroes will dispose of Rose and probably the other Serpent Person leader, who is more a WIE anyways here (Scraggle will handle Rose), so I'll talk about the Lemurian finale..

Meadham/Ssuithan will summon Yig, preparing an attack from Lemuria and to distirbute the virus...see, this virus? Will shatter the minds of humanity to make them docile slaves...the survivors. The virus will in truth kill 99 percent of the human race. The heroes, however, will not be having this and will strike back, Ssulithan summoning the power of Yig to become an avatar of the mighty Old One...but will fall to the heroes, saving the world.

Heinousness?

Brand new setting in Pulp Cthulhu and...grotesque experiments, catastrophically murderous goals and horrific means to achieve them. Ssulithan/Joshua Meadham has it all here. Yeah, easy pass.

Mitigating Qualities?

Zero. Even for a Serpent Man, Ssulithan is a power hungry monster who cares nothing for even his own people, expressly viewing other Serpent People as expendable if they get in the way and being a vicious racist who wants humanity subjugated or wiped out. Pass.

Conclusion?

And an easy, happy yes.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#197071: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:40:45 PM

Yes to Nergal, and yes to Joshua. My half of Pulp Cthulhu? The serpent-woman Sashannal, or Rose Meadham.

Who is "Rose Meadham?" What has she done?

A hybridized serpent designed to replace the real Joshua Meadham's daughter, Rose starts off as an eager proponent of Caduceus and all of its atrocities before a chance encounter with Tsathoggua resulted in Rose being left the only survivor of her search party. Tsathoggua spared Rose and Rose subsequently abandoned Caduceus' goals and agendas, becoming a secret Tsathoggua worshiper. Rose eventually left Caduceus, but not before attempting to murder her "father" Joshua and his entire board room with a bomb.

Rose founds a cult called the Inner Night, favoring force over subterfuge and promoting the use of her followers literally skinning people alive to take their forms. Rose gets to a lot of the same stuff as Joshua—mass sacrifice, lots of murder, and hundreds reduced to fodder for experimentation, slaves or voormi chow—and gets to some nice personal villainy on the side, hacking off the fingers of two treasure hunters she forces into her service before trying to torture the both of them to death when they go renegade. Rose even gives a bomb called a Haftorang Device to the heroes if they're in her service, imploring them to detonate it and annihilate half of Calcutta, by which time she will have already fled India.

Rose's goal is different but equally nasty to Joshua's; using a hidden doomsday device, Rose simply intends to hide underground and detonate thousands of volcanoes and cause violent disasters all over the globe to ravage the planet, annihilating humanity completely as well as every serpent-person not loyal to the Inner Night, so she can rule over the remnants. Rose has the same contingency as Joshua—to banish Mu, resulting in tidal waves that will still wipe out countries and kill millions (and Rose is noted to be "much less squeamish" over this backup plan) is stopped typically at the end of the campaign, before or after Joshua.

Any mitigating factors?

Nope. Pulp is removed from COC proper and Rose is about as wicked as Joshua is, both presented as equally vile. Tyrannish explicitly being nowhere near as bad helps them each qualify immensely.

Conclusion?

Keeper.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#197072: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:41:40 PM

Is there any indication in the film that Sutler was a part of Three Waters? If not then the merged entry would be misleading

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#197073: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:46:29 PM

Sutler Likely approved of it(The film Dosent outright say it, just that Creedy "Had the idea that it shouldn't be an enemy of the country but rather the country itself". So Sutler was probably just saying "sure go ahead". Maybe calling Sutler one of the "Masterminds" is overstating but that's the definition of a nitpick) as we see That the Party used it in there plan to get Sutler elected(Selling the cure to people to get party members rich and using the fear) That part I don't really mind.

[tup] to Rose

"Pulp Cthulu" sounds kinda funny.

Edited by Kylotrope on Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:56:03 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#197075: Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:52:16 PM

[tup] The Cthulu duo. Honestly I think the merged entry looks good and I think that they have enough shared crimes for them to have a shared entry.


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