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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#197026: Jan 2nd 2020 at 2:34:20 PM

[tup] Metaraxes

Sorry Xie, I'm truly sorry for your loss

Watch me destroying my country
LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#197027: Jan 2nd 2020 at 3:00:57 PM

[up][up][up][up]For Superman smashes the Klan at least one guy (the Klan Leader Matt Reeves) probably won't count. The guy's an absolute shithead but he DOES genuinely love his nephew and part of the reason his nephew doesn't want to turn on him is because his uncle had been there for the family in a dark time. So again. Absolute shithead but he just enough redeeming qualities he doesn't count

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#197029: Jan 2nd 2020 at 3:38:12 PM

Reminder that In Death gets lock-requested tomorrow morning.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#197030: Jan 2nd 2020 at 3:52:09 PM

[tup]Bluebeard

[tdown]Metatraxes

Question: what would be the oldest complete monster we've ever had (in terms of when the work was made). My best guesses are Haman, Apep, all the greek guys, or Angra Mainyu

Edited by nwotyzal on Jan 2nd 2020 at 3:54:46 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#197032: Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:00:17 PM

[up][down]I always assumed Ahriman or Haman due to them being the first major religions

Edited by nwotyzal on Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:07:51 AM

IukaSylvie from Kyoto, Japan Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#197034: Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:06:00 PM

Actually, looking at wikipedia, Apep came first.

EDIT: According to wiki, approximate time periods:

  • Apep: Possibly as early as 3100 BC.
  • Lamashtu: 3000 BC-400 AD.
  • Ahriman/Angra: 1500-1000 BC (Zoroaster's lifetime).
  • Greek dudes: Ancient Greece according to wiki is 12th–9th centuries BC to AD 600.
  • Haman, if Ahasuerus is Xerxes I, before 465 BC.

Edited by ACW on Jan 2nd 2020 at 7:15:29 AM

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#197035: Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:15:10 PM

My sincerest prayers and condolences go out to you and your friends family, Xie.

Also I'm going to throw in a no for Metaraxes. But yes to Torres though. I believe NSWIE is grounds for a keep.

Edited by Klavice on Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:20:14 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#197036: Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:18:15 PM

[up][up]HISTORY

wish you the best, Xie

Edited by nwotyzal on Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:20:31 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#197037: Jan 2nd 2020 at 4:37:28 PM

Am I the only one surprised we haven't found a depiction of Saddam Hussein that qualifies?

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#197039: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:00:45 PM

Sorry to hear about that Xie.

Now, this is an old duo I think could use with their entries being combined given they share a slew of crimes.

Currently:

  • V for Vendetta: Unlike the comic book, where the fascist characters are more sympathetic, in the film some of them are irredeemable monsters:
    • High Chancellor Adam Sutler is a fascist dictator who rules the UK with an iron fist. After the Three Waters Incident leaves the UK in chaos, Sutler seizes power. After becoming Chancellor, Sutler sends anyone he disapproves of (Muslims, homosexuals, political dissidents) to concentration camps to be killed. Sutler violently cracks down on any sort protest against the regime. Sutler is also a very petty dictator, having a talk show host arrested and killed for mocking him.
    • Peter Creedy is the head of The Finger, Norsefire's Secret Police. Creedy's agents seem to have free range to do almost anything they want, including raping women found violating curfew. Creedy's agents arrest anyone who is deemed a threat to the Norsefire regime. Creedy is something of a sadist, sometimes violently beating some of the political prisoners he arrests. However, the worst thing Creedy has done is masterminding the aforementioned Three Waters Incident, in which he launches a biological attack on the UK that leaves 80,000 people dead and allows Norsefire to seize power. In the end, Creedy decides to kill Sutler and seize power for himself.

My proposal:

  • V for Vendetta: The Norsefire Party's High Chancellor Adam Sutler and Party Leader Peter Creedy are the sinister duo behind the Three Waters incident, leaving tens of thousands dead and allowing for their fascist regime to take over. Interning identity groups the bigoted dictatorship disapproved of, they saw Muslims, homosexuals and political dissidents imprisoned and killed while Creedy's "Fingermen" ran rampant, allowed to murder those disobeying laws and raping women as they saw fit. Sadistic and petty, Sutler and Creedy greedily take any measure they can to maintain power, with Creedy's avarice even leading him to kill Sutler to try and take power himself.

Thoughts?

ACW if you want tropes for their names I'd go President Evil and Dirty Cop since that's basically what his role as the head of the Finger makes him. The main antagonist thing gets wonky because it's treated as a split with Sutler nominally holding power and Creedy as a Hyper-Competent Sidekick but not so much I'd like to see it go straight "Big Bad and Dragon-in-Chief".

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#197040: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:04:04 PM

Secret Police for "Fingermen"?

I also have 2 more potholes to play with. (Politically Incorrect Villain around "bigoted dictatorship"?)

Edited by ACW on Jan 2nd 2020 at 8:05:45 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#197041: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:05:12 PM

My first EP was in September, so only a few months. Have not been here for long.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#197042: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:08:18 PM

Greed around greedy? The Starscream about Creedy offing Sutler? Politically Incorrect Villain around the bit about internment? Something about Nazis? Something about the Police State they turn the UK into? There are a lot I can think of.

TheImmortalAngelNewton The MILF Virus Since: Aug, 2015 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
The MILF Virus
#197043: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:09:23 PM

Sorry Xie

Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#197044: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:16:57 PM

Let's try this:

I'd LOVE to slap an Adaptational Villainy there, as both seem worse than their comic counterparts, but the other 4 potholes work better IMO. Honestly, in the old days, there'd be SEVERAL more potholes.

Also, The Dreaded seems appropriate from the character page.

Edited by ACW on Jan 2nd 2020 at 8:17:49 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#197045: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:17:15 PM

[up][up][up] And I haven't been doing this much longer than you. My first EP was in June.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:22:00 AM

IukaSylvie from Kyoto, Japan Since: Oct, 2017 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#197047: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:53:19 PM

Lending my full support to the V for Vendetta rewrites.

Final Hellblazer from me, then writeups. This is a minor recurring villain from Peter Milligan's run: Julian the ekkimu.

Who is Julian? What has he/she done?

A shapeshifting Babylonian entity given spontaneous life by a "whore of Ishtar", Julian is a sadist who regularly hops out of his old skins to change his identities. Easily bored and seeking new projects to stimulate himself—"a pogrom here, a lynching there"—Julian is introduced in #251 as a tenuous ally of John, giving John one of his old skins for the purpose of its addictive qualities.

Well, it doesn't take us very long to see the monster Julain really is. Julian's boredom has taken him into the educational system where he spends his time preying on kids; we see him disguised as a young girl, in the middle of convincing some junior high girls to mutilate a fellow student, starting with her eyes. When a teacher interrupts him, Julian rakes out her eyes and later murders her in the hospital. The “addictive skin” thing, too, turns out to be Julian’s way of trying to enslave John to awful addiction. John gets back by torching all of Julian’s skins, and Julian responds by coldly murdering John’s girlfriend Phoebe.

As John reels over Phoebe’s murder, Julian gets to all sorts of fun new hobbies, posing as a “suicide assistant” to lure depressed people with the promise of a painless death. Once there, Julian paralyses them and slowly vivisects them alive to harvest their organs, ensuring they can feel everything—even grafting a mask to their face that forces them to see Julian’s true demonic form.

Julian’s most wicked new hobby is when he slips into and takes over a prison he's sent to, resulting it it becoming a hellhole worse than most hellhole prisons. Anyone who falls into solitary confinement become Julian’s toys, where he gruesomely rips them apart and puts them back together, over and over and over for nights on end until the prisoners are suicidal shells on themselves. Julian even cheerfully gives a prisoner he's tortured to insanity a knife to end his life with, gloating to John the prisoner had absolutely nothing left in him.

Thankfully, John overpowers Julian and throws the creep to be seemingly beaten to death by the convicts. He's appeared once or twice after, but he hasn't really done anything, so that's all, folks!

Any mitigating factors?

No real indications of any agency concerns and Julian's utterly bereft of any redeeming qualities.

The standard is a bit trickier given Julian's at the low end of the totem pole concerning HB candidates—which says a lot considering the mountainload of awful torture and murder Julian gets up to—but I don't think Julian is necessarily left behind. Julian lacks the power of world-destroying demons like the Fuckpig but has a visceral cruelty that's unmatched by anyone but the worst demons, and his relative longevity means he has time to pile up a rapsheet that I think stands out even in the general Hellblazer setting. He wouldn't count if it wasn't for that last issue with the prison, but that's the stuff that seals the deal for me.

Conclusion?

Less solid on him than the others, but yes, I think Julian keeps. A potential image for our page, too.

Edited by Scraggle on Jan 2nd 2020 at 6:59:21 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#197049: Jan 2nd 2020 at 5:57:42 PM

[tup] Julian and his image.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Jan 2nd 2020 at 10:28:41 AM


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