During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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Kristina Frye was a "psychic" like Jane. Unlike Jane, who knows he's a phony, she believes that she really does have psychic powers and can communicate with the dead. When Red John captures her, he does something to her that's never specified that leaves her catatonic, believing she's dead. Jane is only able to get her to talk to him when he holds a "séance" to contact her ghost. It's assumed she's put into psychiatric care by the police afterwards as what happens to her after her last conversation with Jane is unknown.
Surprisingly no. After five seasons of Arc Fatigue, they wrap up the Red John storyline completely in the first eight episodes of season 6. Not that those eight episodes weren't really good, but to say I was floored would be an understatement.
edited 27th Nov '13 3:06:08 PM by OccasionalExister
@Ambar- I know that Nicholson's Joker is obvious counterexample, but I'd say that despite the humorous tone of some of his crimes, he's a lot more heinous (not to mention that he was the killer of Bruce's parents in his pre-Joker days).
Part of why I'm not seeing Film!Bullseye as qualifying is because he's working for/doing evil on behalf of someone else. While I think some mook characters can qualify, I'm hesitant to include them(especially if the people giving the orders don't qualify), unless the mook is someone who is going above and beyond their orders.
Basically, compare Film!Bullseye to someone like Angel Eyes or Frank from Once Upon a Time in the West.
edited 27th Nov '13 3:13:33 PM by Hodor
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wikiAllow me to add to the The Chrysalids entry.
Joseph Strorm is not a kind man. Even before he leads the hunt to capture his own son, daughter, and niece, with full and clear intent to murder them (and possibly torture them a bit beforehand), he's a cruel, vicious bastard. He takes the setting's anti-mutant religious dogma far too seriously, and he administers cruel beatings that border on torture to anybody who so much as speaks out against him. His hatred of mutants is such that even an agent of the church whose job it is to track down mutants thinks he's a bit overboard. Hell, he beat his own son half to death for the "blasphemy" of saying that he could do with an extra hand when doing a difficult task. Yeah. And while most other communities only exile mutants and spay the females, Strorm jumps on the opportunity to murder them all in cold blood, even though his son, daughter, niece, and brother (who was a sort of tribal leader among the mutants since his exile) are included in that number.
edited 27th Nov '13 4:17:38 PM by Erivale
@19567: Personally I think that Bullseye manages to do just enough to elevate him from standard mook level. Had it just been killing the asshole at the bar, I could see him just being another standard killer for hire, but compounded with killing an innocent old woman, killing his boss's bodyguard for fun, framing Daredevil for his murder of Electra's dad, and going after Daredevil because of injured pride, I think he has enough independent cruelty (in addition to the obvious pleasure he takes from murdering on the job), to make Bullseye stand out on his own instead of just being a Hired Gun for the Kingpin.
I forgot the element of him framing Daredevil. Ok, I'm inclined to agree with keeping him (although, for the record him killing the old woman is one of the funniest scenes in the movie).
Edit, edit, edit, edit the wikiYet another update on Vector from Yu-Gi-Oh! ZEXAL. If you'll recall I had wondered if he might have loyalty to his people and a desire for revenge against the Astrals, who had legitimately screwed his kind over, and that these might be redeeming qualities. Nope. Turns out the real plan called for not only the destruction of Earth and the Astrals, but the other Barians as well, which would allow Vector and only Vector to gain UNLIMITED POWAAAAAAAAH! Can't really see him coming back from this, but YGO is a series that loves redemption, so who knows.
Heads up...two entries I also plan to propose soon. The Big Bad and The Dragon from Go Lion the Super Robot anime that Voltron was based on.
@19552: Alright, I'm cool with adding the Ravers.
@19558: Well, if he tries to redeem himself by killing himself and resurrecting those he's killed, and he's admitted that he really did love the real Rin, then I can't see anyway to possibly keep him.
@19560: Cut Luzhin, Adam sounds like a possible keep but needs expansion and more context. Joseph Strorm also sounds like a keeper based on what Erivale said @19570.
@19573: Good to know. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time a shonen series tried to pull out a half-assed redemption or Alas, Poor Villain (as seen in this very post), but baring that he sounds like he'd be a keeper.
Anyone else have any thoughts on Red John?
edited 27th Nov '13 7:02:44 PM by OccasionalExister
I'm going to propose a rewrite for the Warhammer 40k general info paragraph.
- Warhammer 40,000 is a dark and brutal place to live. No side is truly in the right, with most not even remotely in the "good" territory of the Well-Intentioned Extremist. That said, there are a few villains that stand out in terms of evil:
edited 27th Nov '13 8:00:26 PM by randomtroper89
Re Red John back on the last page: Italian TV isn't that far down the The Mentalist episodes. If there is anything that qualifies Red John, it's in one of the future episodes. Not necessarily a disqualifier, there.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanI'm not entirely sure why there. The writers have billed this as the final appearance of Red John and there's a ton that indicates it's his final arc, and it ends with him being Killed Off for Real. Not in a Never Found the Body way either but the hero killing him with his bare hands, seeing the light leave his eyes, etc.
I think it sounds safe to discuss him there.
Happy thanksgiving to all our US participants, too!
edited 28th Nov '13 12:04:51 PM by Lightysnake
@19576: Much more succinct, I'm onboard with it.
@19578: I really doubt he's going to show up again. At least, I hope to God he doesn't. This arc just had way too great an air of finality with a lot of evidence pointing to this being the end of the character. Red John dies in a way that's completely unambiguous: shot in the stomach then strangled to death by Jane. After the first eight episodes of the season were dedicated to whittling down the list of suspects from seven people, Thomas McAllister admits to being Red John once the rest are dead (well, one is jailed but Jane is convinced he's not Red John). McAllister even perfectly performs the lilting voice Red John had always used when talking with Jane previously. The arc just feels way too final with prominent characters drop dead all throughout it and the criminal conspiracy that Red John was behind is finally exposed to the public.
Plus there's a lot of meta evidence he's done. The arc was advertised as "Red John: The Final Chapter." Now that he's dead the next arc is being advertised as "The Mentalist: New Beginning" with the focus being Jane freed from his quest for vengeance. (EDIT: This arc will begin with a two year Time Skip following Red John's death.) Also, ever since the pilot every single episode title has alluded to, in some way, the color red (ex: "Red Right Hand", "Strawberries and Cream", "Fire and Brimstone", etc.), which signified Red John's shadow being cast over the show. Ending with the episode "Red John", the future episode titles are free from the mention of red and now focus on new colors.
I just doubt they're doing another fakeout after all of the buildup. I'm sure we'll run into some more disciples of Red John who want vengeance (he did say something cryptic about working with a psychic just before Jane kills him), but for the Big Bad himself, I think he's gone for good.
EDIT: Side note, anyone against me requesting the deletion of the unnamed example from the ep. "Red Carpet Treatment" that Red John shares his entry with and Rachel Bowman? The first example (his name escapes me) is a sociopath, but his crime of raping and killing a woman is Offscreen Villainy. He brags to the husband of a woman he's been writing to that he plans on doing the same to her, but even then he fails the heinous standard. The other one, as I said earlier, is motivated completely to avenge her dead father since Jane inadvertently led to his death. She has a loved one and also fails the heinous standard, only limiting her crime to Jane and Lisbon and a mook who had outlived his usefulness.
edited 28th Nov '13 7:58:25 PM by OccasionalExister
- Complete Monster: Both characters were morally and socially troubling individuals, even in childhood, but they at least started off as tragic and sympathetic. By the end of the book, it's almost cathartic when they die.
- More Vlad than Elizabeth. She's no saint, but at least she thinks she's behaving in a logical way, and feels no true satisfaction when she murders someone innocent. Vlad, on the other hand, gloats about the stench of burning bodies, enjoys watching the fear on his victims' faces, and proposes at one point lowering the age of conscription for his army. When the age of conscription is already twelve.
Okay, the entry makes it clear that Elizabeth doesn't count. As for Vlad, there are several things on the main page that indicate he doesn't count.
- Complete Monster: Bekter, anyone? He raped a prepubescent girl, stole game that Temujin worked hard for and was willing to let his family starve as long as he had enough for himself.
- Guyuk and Arik-Boke, in Conqueror, also contend for the title. However, due to Deliberate Values Dissonance, lots of main characters (like Hulegu) would be this to a modern reader, even Genghis.
- There's also Eeluk, who betrays Yesugei's family after he dies, at his funeral, steals the heirloom sword, and tortures Temujin when he's captured.
That second bullet point is eyebrow-raising.
- Complete Monster: Abendroth of the Einsatzgruppen, who saws off a teenage girl's feet off when she tries to run away from the cabin where they kept her (and other girls) as sex-slaves. The gruesome sight even caused one of the Germans in the room to run out of the cabin, screaming his head off.
Sounds bad but could use expansion.
Conqueror is the infamous one with John Wayne in yellowface as Genghis Khan, no? It's mentioned that the Values Dissonance is deliberate; does that mean it's a period piece, using 1100s values instead of modern ones? If so, we shouldn't have a problem with this if anyone actually qualifies. I discussed this sort of thing with Ambar via PM, and we agreed that there's two types of historical movies: those that use the values of the period they're set in and those that look at the past through a modern lens; for the former category, we should judge CM candidates by the values of the time.
I think it's from the book series by Conn Iggulden my friend.
Here are Daibazaal and Prince Sincline from Go Lion
Who Are They?
King Daibazaal and his son, The Evil Prince Sincline who functions as The Dragon to his father. At the series' start, Daibazaal is the despotic emperor of Galra, an imperialistic society that has spread throughout the galaxy. Any who resist are crushed and razed with Daibazaal's iron fist. Those who survive his butchery of their worlds are taken back to Galra as slaves. Daibazaal enjoys to force them to engage in gladiator matches for his amusement, or to be fed to any number of monsters he keeps for use in his armies.
Sincline is like his father in many ways. Sincline is a military commander in Galra who carries out the military campaigns and is introduced providing his father with a bunch of heads from those who had surrendered to Galra. Sincline takes over the campaigns against earth, that's protected by the combining robot Go Lion and its pilots, and proves himself to be as nasty as his dad.
What Do They Do?
Bear with me on this one. We see both Sincline and Daibazaal's warcrimes, plus how Daibazaal runs his Empire with the slaves. Daibazaal has a variety of other crimes to his name. Namely, Sincline's mother.
Sincline's mother was a human captive Daibazaal took a fancy to and raped, producing Sincline . When Daibazaal got bored of her, he strangled her to death after she begged him to treat the slaves better. Sincline is a more proactive fellow than his dad, and conducts a series of nasty campaigns on earth. He's believed initially to be more honorable, but this is proven false when he cheats to win a duel.
Sincline forms a Stalker with a Crush obsession with the heroine, Princess Fala and attempts to capture her so he can forcibly make her his. When he captures her cousin, who's a dead-ringer for her, Sincline keeps her in terrible conditions and apparently rapes her at least once. He is also a Bad Boss to insane levels. Subordinates do not tend to survive his temper tantrums, or their failures.
Towards the series end, the tension between the two boils over. Sincline's success and popularity means he's a threat to Daibazaal's reign, so Daibazaal has him arrested. Sincline turns the tables and overthrows his father, forcing him to fight Go-Lion himself with a promise if Daibazaal wins, he'll have the throne back. Sincline sabotages his father so he'll die in the fight and uses a rather nasty trick to trap Go-Lion: human captives in exploding capsules as human shields.
Sincline takes the throne, but as his sanity slips, he shows himself to be The Caligula and just as bad as his dad. He eventually starts slaughtering his own people who want to surrender and kills his grandmother, Witch Honerva (he didn't know she was Daibazaal's mother until minutes before her death, where she reveals he's a half-breed. The two absolutely hate one another, but Sincline isn't remotely conflicted over butchering her when he learns she's his grandmother) in a fight.
When Galra falls, Sincline takes one of the heroes hostage, so he can strongarm the others into surrender so he can kill them and destroy Go-Lion, requiring his hostage taking a Heroic Sacrifice to hurl both himself and Sincline to their deaths.
Redeeming Qualities and Heinous Standard?
Both of them set the heinous standard. While Daibazaal created the Galra Empire's monstrosity, Sincline embraces it and commits his own share of crimes. Daibazaal has nothing resembling a redeeming quality. He gets on fine with Honerva, but never expresses affection for her in any way. He and Sincline flat out hate one another later and scheme against one another until tensions finally boil over between them.
Sincline, unlike his Voltron counterpart, lacks any honor. His pretense at it is utterly hollow and his feelings for the princesses are stalkerish obsession. When he learns the cousin is alive and leading the resistance against him, he angrily snarls he thought she was dead and to kill her, all without any remorse. He also tries to have Fala killed without any issues.
When he snaps on his retainers, after he kills the ones who want to surrender, the rest decide to kill him and present his corpse to the resistance so they can survive. Sincline angrily slaughters them, calling them treacherous scum, before he looks at them and whispers "Is this the Galra empire...?" as if he can't believe everything he's schemed his entire life for is so...hollow. He's achieved his dream, but it's pointless and empty. His empire is collapsing and his people despise him and are willing to sell him out.
...however he doesn't exactly have a Heel Realization. He takes a hostage and tries to kill Go-Lion, declaring "Galra will NEVER die!" as long as he's alive, so that isn't worth much.
Overall, both of these guys are thoroughly despicable and nasty pieces of work, even for a super robot show.![]()
edited 28th Nov '13 8:30:01 PM by Lightysnake
Thank you for the correct.
While I haven't read these books I am quite interested in the historical figure of Genghis Khan, and I can tell you about the historical Bekhter, if that'd help. Bekhter was Temujin's (the future Genghis Khan) older stepbrother, who was killed by Temujin as a teenager. Why he would've done this has been subject of some debate, but it's generally considered that either a) Bekhter was hoarding food, which the family desperately needed at that point, or b) Bekhter was attempting to use his position as oldest male in the family to force himself on his stepmother, Temujin's mother, which as you might imagine cheesed the young Khan off quite a bit. In short, Bekhter was basically the 1100s Mongolian equivalent of a street thug, so if the book portrayed him as a CM I'd argue he'd be distinct enough from rulers and conqueror types like Genghis's opponents, and of course the Khan himself, to qualify.
edited 28th Nov '13 8:39:42 PM by HamburgerTime
I read the first book in the Conqueror series a long, long time ago. I remember Behkter as a colossal Jerkass, but don't remember the details.
Iggulden also takes significant liberties with history, so he might have given Bekter a Historical Villain Upgrade

@Hodor
I think though that you could say many of the same things about Jack Nicholson's Joker, and nobody objects to his going up, despite the humerous nature of many of his crimes.
@Exister
Sold. I figured we'd see John going up there eventually. I take it The Mentalist is now over?